Scary situation!

My sister and I chat online (she lives in France) and she told me this morning that her DIL, who is so precious and sweet and we all love her but...she suffers from mental illness. Bi Polar and some skitzo mixed in. Her father, who used to be a doctor, is completely nuts. Homeless. Her brothers are also out there.

She and my nephew have two beautiful boys. However, DIL has stopped taking her meds and has joined this crazy faith that believes everything is spiritual. So they have her convinced to pray, etc. and let them help her through this spiritual batte. And, they believe my nephew should also join the church to help her fight this.

She has gotten so bad, thinking that muscle spasms are either MS, Lupus or her father practicing satan worship and causing them. She's been going to doctors who have all told her nothing is wrong and finally a doctor sent her to a counselor who sent her to a shrink, who put her in a mental hospital for five days.

She's now out and continuing on her faith based healing and refusing to take meds. So my poor nephew works all day and comes home to this craziness.

My sister's main concern is she will be one of these people who claims God told her to kill her children or something. And my sis is in France, can't make the trip, so just worries, prays and lights candles in every church she sees. I asked if they could commit her but nobody seems to think she's a danger to herself or others. This is so freaking scary.

Hi, Dianne,
I am sorry for your sister's dilemma. It is so hard for you to, since she is so far away, and leaves you feeling helpless, I know.
I think it is sad when extreme religions dismiss the benefits of medication, especially in someone of the DIL's profile. She could very well pose a threat to herself and her family.
ARI

Dianne -

My heart goes out to her -- my son was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia at 18 --

This is a very serious illness -- and without the CORRECT meds -- can be dangerous to the person and people around them.

Bi Polar is very similar to schizophrenia -- but the fact that her father and brothers have this --and the way you described them being homeless etc this sounds more schizophrenic than bi polar. If she's talking about God or the devil telling her to do/say things -- GET HER COMMITTED and on meds -- again the religious part of this coming thru tends to make me lean more towards the schizophrenia.

I'm not sure if its only your sister that lives in France -- but if the DIL lives here in the states they can Baker Act her into an institution. They need to find one that they would feel comfortable leaving her in and set it in motion. A medical doctor is not going to cut if for this sort of illness -- she needs a psychiatrist that CARES and knows his schizophrenia and bi polar !!

They can't give up on her. It's only going to get worse. They need to find a doctor -- a KNOWLEDGEABLE doctor in the area of these two illness's -- and believe me I know how hard this is !! -- that will take this serious and will help find a solution for her. Even if it means against her will !! Five days will NOT give the illness enough days to rear its ugly head or for the meds to truly start working - these anti-pyschotics are very potent meds and can't just be given with a script and say call me in a week -- they need to be monitored closely for at least 2 weeks.

I'm not saying this for the drama -- I just can't stress the need for help here enough -- and where I cant say about the BiPolar -- I can promise you that if its schizophrenia -- she WILL become dangerous to herself and others !!!!

(by the way - do you know what meds was she on)

Thanks. No, I don't know what she was taking. Not sure my sister does either. I'll forward your message to my sis. She hates to be a butt in MIL and her son just told her about this and I think it happened two weeks ago. He's pretty closed mouth about his problems so she has to be delicate with him. Thanks again.

Please feel free to email me - lionspaaw@aol.com- just put "dianne" in the subject so I won't delete you as spam ;-)

It's so sad that these types of illness's quite often dont show up until families are formed -- careers are made -- and many lives are devistated by them.

I hope you don't mind but I passed your email addy onto my sister. Told her to put Dianne's sister in the subject line. I really and deeply appreciate your help with this.

I really can't do much more than give her support, but I'm happy to do that.

We went through all this basically alone. I wish I had more information - especially about the drugs - it might have made a difference.

Did you read Danielle Steel's book about her son? It really shows how horrible it is on all involved.

Dianne, I'm so happy to see lion jumped in this forum. I have faith she will come to their rescue in any way possible.

Mental illness can be frightening when not managed properly. It appears to be coming more prevalent in this day and age. Don't you wonder why?

I have a friend who works with mentally ill people who commit crimes. Talk about scary. Many of them are OFF their medications for some reason or other when the crime is committed. She is concerned because when many are set free from jail, they go back to the streets with medicine that typically runs out in 30 days. Then what do they do? It's sad because many can live healthy lives when taking the proper medication.

Isn't part of the illness not taking their meds? I know they don't like missing the highs they experience but I've known very few people who are mentally ill that will take their meds.

Leigha would probably tell us that the chemicals we're ingesting today are causing this to become more of a problem and I agree. It's gotta be something we're doing wrong.

Anti-psychotic meds make people start feeling better -- they think they are "cured" and since the side effects are so TERRIBLE -- they figure they can go off them -- of course as soon as they do -- their brain starts malfunctioning again and then they stop thinking straight. They feel its everyone else that's wrong and they're right.

It's a vicious circle. We went thru it a few times with Robert -- instead of arguing with him I would tell him that I really didnt think he should but I respected his wishes to try going off the meds -- I explained that we simply couldnt take the chance of having the illness take control of him again if he went off the meds at home so he would have to respect our fear of the illness and go back to the crisis center for the first two weeks. It was always enough to keep him from trying it. Usually within the hour he would come back to me and thank me for not letting his stop.

Everything we think or do or feel gets routed through our brain. How terrifying it must be to have no control of those functions !!!

What are the side effects?

Dianne, I don't think it's part of the mental illness necessarily. Patients begin feeling better and think they can live without the meds.

I became clinically depressed after a car accident. I took an antidepressant. I began feeling my self in no time. After the first bottle ran out I didn't refill it because I felt so good. My doctor told me I needed to stay on the meds for the same period of time I had felt down. I needed to relearn healthy positive behaviors. Anyway, within a few days without the medication the blues returned. I IMMEDIATELY filled the prescription.

Mental illness is tricky to say the least. Fortunately, there are more doctors who are becoming proficient in treatment. I think the key is finding one of those doctors!

I agree with Dotsie -- the key is finding a GOOD doctor that really understands the illness -- whatever it may be.

Side effects of anti-psychotics -- like any meds will differ with the person -- Robert had horrible stomach/bowel problems. He also hated having blood work done to monitor his liver. They can weaken the heart -- all sorts of stuff. Figure anything stong enough to put the brain on the right track has to cause havoc to other organs.

No wonder he didn't want to take them. The lesser of two evils.

My nephew told my sister that he didn't want to open that can of worms, having her committed against her will. I guess it's his can of worms and he's gonna do what he wants to do. Geesh.

If she is committed and nothing comes of it -- the worst that happens is they argue over it -- I gather they're doing alot of that now.

If she ISNT committed and she has something as serious as bi polar or schizophrenia -- the worst that can happen is she hurts someone or herself.

Maybe things arent as bad as your nephew is giving the impression it is ????? I sure hope he just doesnt "let it slide" because it's the easy thing to do !!

All your sister can do is try to keep up on whats going on and support your nephew. If she feels she has to step in though ---- I sure hope she will.

Keep us posted !!

Lion's concern and your sister's worries are certainly understandable. But your nephew's caution about committing his wife might be wise.
I've read of similar cases that resulted in apparently good parents losing their children to Child Protective Services.

Of course the safety of the children should come first, but commitment is a serious step that should not be taken lightly.
smile

The only thing they argue about is her insistance that he go to church with her, which he refuses to do. She's become very fanatical and even my sister had to ask her to stop preaching to her because it was ruining their relationship. She's really gone overboard and especially believing her dad has put a curse on her.

I can't say enough about proper medications in the appropriate doses. I guess I'm one of the fortunate ones with Bipolar who recognized that I had an illness and needed medical attention. I've been on medications now for over two years and I'm a much better person for it.

I recognize the symptoms in me and know how to handle them. I really feel for those who are out of control and let the illness run their lives rather than controlling the illness themselves.

Some people without going to the doctor seem to "Self Medicate" by using drugs or alcohol. This is a very poor way of trying to control their illness. It only leads to disaster.

All I can say is have her loved ones watch her and be there for her when she crashes. It will happen. She may attempt to hurt herself or someone else, unknowingly. She's a ticking timebomb.

Vicki, would you mind sharing the symptoms you experience? Okay if you don't want to. I understand. I appreciate your openness on this.

I know lots of boomers take various medications for depression, bi-polar, etc. and I would never advise ignoring a physicians' advice. But every time this subject comes up, I have to practically tie my hands in a knot to keep from responding. I have seen so many lives wrecked by both legal and illegal drugs.

When drugs are prescribed it is so important that symptoms are carefully assessed by a qualified physician who will spend enough time to make an accurate diagnosis.
Far too often family physicians and others without psychiatric training prescribe anti-depressants and other psychotropic drugs without spending enough time to accurately evaluate symptoms.
They prescribe a drug and the patient feels better immediately, but the long-term effects can be serious. Anti depressants which are for clinical depression which is a depressive response to situations that are not necessarily depressing. It is a depression that continues for a long period of time and does not lift even long after a particularly depressing event and is not responsive to happier times.
Anti depressants are often incorrectly prescribed for situational depression which is a perfectly normal response to a sad event. In the presence of anti-depressants which try to trick the brain into thinking it is not depressed, the brain simply compensates by lowering the sadness threshold so that in the future even a barely distressing event will lead to extreme sadness. Therefore, the patient must take the drug forever or face the consequences of extreme sadness and perhaps even clinical depression.

Even with an accurate diagnosis, it is important to be alert for side effects because in addition to physical side effects, they also have psychological side effects that are discrete and difficult to evaluate because the drugs lead to distorted thinking which makes it difficult to assess one's own reaction and/or side effects.
It has recently come to light that anti-depressants can lead to extreme anxiety, aggressive tendencies, and lack of control in teens and children. I believe they would lead to similar reactions in adults, except adults have more well developed controls.
Anti depressants when inaccurately prescribed can lead to aggression. They have been implicated in at least eight of the most recent school shootings and in several of the workplace shootings. There must be a correlation.

I know I sound like your mother or worse, but I am speaking from my heart and from observations in the healthcare facilities where the ill effects show up.

Just be careful and do all the research you can on any drug you are prescribed. I have refused several drugs prescribed for me after surgery because I researched the side effects. It's scary.

I appreciate the warning. I was on Lipitor for a while and was losing muscle strength in one of my legs. Scared me to death and it was only after seeing a tv commercial about it being a serious side effect, that I told my doctor no more. I don't think I have a very good doctor anyway. Gonna change.

Bipolar disorder is sometimes referred to as a set of symptoms. They last for a length of time, usually considered an "episode", that have a beginning phase, the worst phase, and a recovery phase.

Those of us with bipolar would consider these as "life experiences."

(Taken from The Bipolar Disorder Survival Guide by David J. Miklowitz) Bipolar is a mood disorder. Mood swings occur between two "poles", a high and a low. In the manic "high" stage people experience different combinations of the following: elated or euphoric mood (excessive happiness or expansiveness.) irritable mood (excessive anger and touchiness), a decreased need for sleep, grandiosity or an inflated sense of themselves and their abilities, increased talkativeness, racing thoughts or jumping from one idea to another, an increase in activity and energy levels, changes in thinking, attention, and perception, and impulsive, reckless behavior. These kinds of episodes alternate with depressed behavior. Being sad, blue, or "Down in the dumps", losing interest in things he or she ordinarily enjoyed, losing weight and appetite, feeling fatigued, difficulty sleeping (or sleeping too much) feelings of guilt and feeling bad about him/herself. Trouble concentrating or making decisions and often feels like committing suicide. (end of excerpt)

Now, I can help expand on this "committing suicide" thing. It doesn't have to mean taking some pills or using a gun. It can mean indirectly as well. Putting yourself in situations where you "wish" that an accident would happen and you would die. Like getting into a car accident so you could die. This means that the person might not pay as close attention to their driving as they usually would and could get into an accident. They may start speeding a lot and driving recklessly.

They may start hanging around people they wouldn't normally and getting into situations or confrontations with people in hopes to insue a fight or some type of commotion.

When in a manic stage some people feel giddy or mildly irritable. They might go on spending sprees and begin impulsive behavior they wouldn't normally do like acting out sexually. This person may suddenly want to go clubbing all the time when they're "normally" a quiet introspective person.

For me personally, I start to talk a lot when I'm moving into a manic phase. I'll get very verbose and drive my husband absolutely crazy. Or the manic phase can come on with irritability and a sense of paranoia and high anxiety. I'll suddenly be afraid of everything and anything. I won't drive for fear of getting into an accident. I won't go out and get my mail from the mail box because I think someone is watching me.

I don't go into full manic anymore. My meds take care of that for me. But, for someone unmedicated and uncontrollable, their manic stage can lapse over into full blown paranoia and dillusional behavior.

I'm very intuned to what is going on and can usually figure out my mood very quickly. I have additional meds for these to help stabilize along with the ones I take on a daily basis. They work rather well and I won't go anywhere without them.

Before I was diagnosed I went through approximately 5 or 6 years in a full manic phase which then swung into a depression that lasted for a couple of years. It took over a year to find the right combination of meds and doses to make me stable. I trust my doctor and he knows my complete history.

I know what Smile is saying about side effects, but for me, the cost of not being on the meds is too high. I'm not willing to pay that price.

[ May 19, 2005, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Vicki M. Taylor ]

Thanks Vicki for sharing this. I have to ask a question though. Why is religion playing such a bizarre role in this for my sister's DIL? I know you aren't a doctor but I have a friend who works in mental health and said a lot of her clients go the religious route.

Dianne, I don't know why religion is so often involved in mental illness, but it certainly is. When I took my psyche training ages ago, they would not allow a Bible in the facility. I believe that is the case in many hospitals still today.
Maybe it relates to guilt someway.
It's an interesting question. Any other ideas out there?
smile

that's a really good question, but I too, seem to have seen an increase in religious "fanaticism" among those with mental illness. I don't understand the connection.

It's not just with christianity either. Other religions are just as involved, buddaism, muslim, paganism, and more.

Maybe among the paranoia, grandiose dillusion, there is a desire to connect with some sort of supernatural force and people turn to that which they can't explain and can be "brain washed" into believing.

People who are dysfunctional in a mental way, tend to gravitate towards cultish behavior. Religion is a cultish behavior.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

While it admittedly isn't always the case, perhaps in some situations, one's faith or belief system becomes the only stable anchor in the midst of the very frighteningly unstable world that overwhelms so many (including myself) who struggle with "mental illness" of any kind. Our own minds become a strange, whirling maelstrom of contradictions, our ability to think and reason our own way out becomes mangled by an unfathomable and inexplicable despair, and we become completely sucked into a level of darkness that few others can even begin to comprehend.

For me, God is the only anchor who never fails to be there with me even in my darkest and loneliest nights when all others have given up on me; it is my past experience of His gentle, steadfast presence and compassionate mercy that keeps me from drowning in my own sea of perceived failures and dysfunctionality.

I don't believe I have ever been brainwashed into believing...and I am definitely not a member of any religious cult. My faith has weathered through decades of dark nights of the soul and I have walked away from Him out of rage and anger because I had just as many unanswered questions as anyone else. His silence has been overwhelmingly and painfully deafening at times.

But the bottom line for me, and many other "mentally ill" people like myself, is that it is first and foremost a personal, intimate relationship, not with a religion or a grandiose illusion, but with a very real and tangible God who for some strange reason loves us just the way we are, even with our mental frailty and inability to function in the "normal" world. When so many others are so quick to relegate us to dysfunctional labels and psych wards, it's comforting to actually have someone on our side, looking out for our real selves (we are always infinitely more than our illnesses)

I still don't have all the answers, and I still struggle with life. But God has been my most (and often only) faithful companion, my consolation through thick and thin, and the best friend anyone could ever imagine or hope for. I wouldn't trade Him and the groundedness my faith gives me in those turbulent mangled times of "mental illness" for anything.

And that's my two cents.

PS...that's not to say that there aren't those out there who do believe in grandiose delusions or religious paranoia, or cultish fanaticism. There absolutely are those for whom religious belief is an unhealthy talisman and integral part of the mental illness itself.

I'm just cautious about lumping everyone who has mental illness and believes in God into the same boat of being delusional, or painting us all with the same colour that sounds suspiciously like "abnormal".

Late addition: And I also humbly apologize if my comments have hijacked this topic in any way. I too struggle with mental illness (these days, mainly mangled thinking), albeit not as severe as bipolar or schizophrenia; being passionate about my faith and sensitive to labels, it was difficult not to participate when this thread took this particular direction.

[ May 20, 2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Eagle and Vicki, your words are touching. I'm certain they will remain helpful for years to women who visit our neighborhood. I'm aware you both suffer/have suffered, but I also know for a fact that you are two of the most insightful, compassionate women I know. I hope you see the gifts amidst your illness because there are many! You are blessed.

I bet we'd finsd some interesting information if we did a Google search for mental illness and cults. Just a thought Dianne.

Thanks ladies for a wealth of information. I think all of you are special and wonderful to share openly here. Applause, applause.

Hi everyone. I'm new to the board, and this topic jumped out at me like a sore thumb under a misplaced hammer. lol. I was undiagnosed bipolar until 4 years ago, and fortunately the first med they put me on worked. Everytime I tried to add something else, I had side effects, so I said, why argue with success?
The way I look at God and bipolar is I know God could heal me if he wanted to, with could being the operative word, but until He does, I am quite content to take my meds and go on my merry way. I have never understood people who think a few months or years of taking meds is enough. This disease is here to stay, and without my meds I'm a wreck.

Welcome Gasongbird and hope all's well in spite of the bipolar experience. Sounds like you have a great attitude....

Welcome gasongbird, Glad you found us. Your outlook is inspiring. Why did it take so long to diagnose you and were you diagnosed differently with other meds prior to that. My sister says her son is bipolar, but he doesn't need the medecine anymore. He is twenty but not very active for his age when it comes to getting a job. I am interested in learning more about bipolar, so I look forward to your posts along with the others.

chick

Try checking out www.bipolarhappnes.com. Also go back through some of the threads in this forum. There are several other topics about being bipolar.

Welcome gasongbird. I'm glad you jumped right in and began sharing. I hope to see you in the other forums too. I have a friend who is bipolar. She takes her medicine all the time. If she had heart disease and stopped taking her medicine she could have scary results. The same with being bipolar.

There is major differences between anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. I agree that this world depends way too much on meds. It's the easy way out for so many doctors - got a symptom - drug it ! But people that need anti-psychotics NEED to take those meds. Take someone with a headache that takes an aspirin -- they could probably cope without it. Someone that suffers from extreme migraines NEEDS to take the meds prescribed to them for their mental survival. The same goes for those who need anti-psychotics.

I often wondered what the relationship between religion and schizophrenia was. Schizophrenics are usually diagnosed because of the voices from God and the devil. It would be interesting to know -- if someone with schizophrenia raised where religion had never been introduced -- would still hear voices from God.

Next time you're in a quiet room by yourself -- imagine hearing someone's voice calling you by name. You'd spin around and expect to see someone you know in the room with you. After your heart skipped a beat you would probably think -- its all in my imagination and have a good laugh over it. But what if that voice called you again and this time several other voices started talking to you -- telling you the neighbors could read your thoughts -- that you were ugly and everyone wanted to kill you -- to listen to them or you would die. Ghosts ???? GOD ????? the devil ???? So you run to a loved one and ask them, in a panic, if they hear that -- how difficult it would be to believe that they didnt !! How easy it would be to become paranoid. I can't even imagine what it would be like or how I would have the strength to survive it !!!

I have soooooo much respect for you ladies that suffer from mental illness's, like bi polar, and openly talk about it. Mental illness used to have such a stigma about it, but the more people talk about it, the more its accepted and more research will be demanded.

To me -- You are heros !!

Lion,
I am so glad you posted that distinction. It makes accurate diagnosis even more important.

An inaccurate diagnosis or simply prescribing for convenience can subject the non
mentally ill patient to frightening and unnecessary side effects ultimately making it impossible for them to function without the medication or worsening their condition.

At the same time, an inaccurate diagnosis can also subject a mentally ill person to improper medication or no medication at all. As you stated, psychotics 'need' their medications and they need them every day.

That is why we need more research and more well trained professionals who can recognize the finite differences in mental conditions and accurately diagnose then prescribe the correct drugs in the correct amounts.

Either way, however, we are ultimately responsible for our own health and we must be vigilant in protecting it.
smile

After several months of my son started showing signs of "something" we had him committed for observation for 3 days (thats how long the law can keep someone against "their will" - at least here) and the head psychiatrist -- the ultimate "expert" in schizophenia in our area -- kept him for 3 days -- called me in for a conference -- told me to get a restraining order against my son -- told him to "grow up" and released him.

Two days later I found him on US 41 - a six lane highway - waving his arms -- cussing and walking AGAINST traffic !!

After the police took him back to the crisis unit, and a different doctor saw him -- the voices from God convinced this doctor that maybe Rob should stay a little longer. Two weeks later he was able to come home - ON MEDS - with the violence controlled.

Moral to this story -- be afraid -- be VERY afraid of "experts". Just because it has all those fancy letters behind their name doesnt make them worthy of your trust. Do your research - ask lots of questions - get references -- like you say -- we are ultimately responsible for our own health -- and even MORE responsible for those loved ones who can't take care of themselves!

I'm OCD. I'm a counter. I can control it when I really try. So, is this a form of mental illness or is it the way my young mind learned to cope against over restrictive, guilt producing and emotionally abusive parents?

This is the definition of mental illness according to NAMI - the National Alliance of Mental Illness.

Mental illnesses include such disorders as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic and other severe anxiety disorders, autism and pervasive developmental disorders, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder, borderline personality disorder, and other severe and persistent mental illnesses that affect the brain. These disorders can profoundly disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, moods, ability to relate to others and capacity for coping with the demands of life.

Mental illnesses can affect persons of any age, race, religion, or income. Mental illnesses are not the result of personal weakness, lack of character, or poor upbringing.

Mental illnesses are treatable. Most people with serious mental illness need medication to help control symptoms, but also rely on supportive counseling, self-help groups, assistance with housing, vocational rehabilitation, income assistance and other community services in order to achieve their highest level of recovery.

Here are some important facts about mental illness and recovery:

Mental illnesses are biologically based brain disorders. They cannot be overcome through "will power" and are not related to a person's "character" or intelligence.
Mental disorders fall along a continuum of severity. The most serious and disabling conditions affect five to ten million adults (2.6 – 5.4%) and three to five million children ages five to seventeen (5 – 9%) in the United States. Mental disorders are the leading cause of disability (lost years of productive life) in the North America, Europe and, increasingly, in the world. By 2020, Major Depressive illness will be the leading cause of disability in the world for women and children. Mental illnesses strike individuals in the prime of their lives, often during adolescence and young adulthood. All ages are susceptible, but the young and the old are especially vulnerable. Without treatment the consequences of mental illness for the individual and society are staggering: unnecessary disability, unemployment, substance abuse, homelessness, inappropriate incarceration, suicide and wasted lives; The economic cost of untreated mental illness is more than 100 billion dollars each year in the United States.
The best treatments for serious mental illnesses today are highly effective; between 70 and 90 percent of individuals have significant reduction of symptoms and improved quality of life with a combination of pharmacological and psychosocial treatments and supports; Early identification and treatment is of vital importance; By getting people the treatment they need early, recovery is accelerated and the brain is protected from further harm related to the course of illness.
Stigma erodes confidence that mental disorders are real, treatable health conditions. We have allowed stigma and a now unwarranted sense of hopelessness to erect attitudinal, structural and financial barriers to effective treatment and recovery. It is time to take these barriers down.

I think this one sentence pretty well sums it up:
These disorders can profoundly disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, moods, ability to relate to others and capacity for coping with the demands of life.

Dianne - if it isnt asking too personal a question - what exactly do you do - being a counter ?

I count the pictures around the tv set, hanging on the wall although I already know how many are there. I count the tv frame's sides. I used to count the window frames in our house, which was really bad. I also counted the number of windows in a car passing my car. The number of words in a street sign. I don't do that anymore. Just the pictures and the tv frame. I have really worked at not doing it.

Thats very interesting. I've done that off and on all my life - just didnt know it was called something

I count tiles in the ceiling - designs on wallpaper -- tiles in a bathroom shower/bath -- anything that seems to have a pattern -- I will also repeat an expression, spell out a word, or sing a bit of a song over and over and over -- until I tell myself to "STOP IT". The only time its annoying is if I'm trying to go back to sleep around 2 am. I always figured it was one of my younger personalities bored and trying to get attention

I've been reading and hearing a lot lately about OCD, and after reading some of the signs of it, have to wonder if I have a mild problem. I don't count things, but only recently noticed that almost everything in my life is in "threes". Three pictures here, three paintings there, three candles over there, three knick-knacks in that corner. And if anyone ever moves one of those things out of place, it bugs me so much I have to get up and put it back.

There are a few other things that might fall into that mild OCD category. Perfectionist kind of things. Like being bothered by a bathroom tile with a design on it that hasn't been installed in sequence with the others.

I have to work very hard, talk myself through not being so anxious about things being "out of place", or out of sequence, or not symmetrical. Crooked pictures on the wall really bother me, but I can restrain myself in other people's houses. I never noticed all these little things before, but was always conscious of being unsettled and anxious and jittery in certain circumstances and can now directly relate them to something in the room being out of sync.

It's not a life-jarring thing, and I'm definitely not inordinately compulsive anymore (I think I used to be before my first breakdown in the 80's), but these kinds of imperfections do still irritate me, but it's more "under the skin" than blatant compulsion. I never understood why it was something I had to learn to live with, why these things bothered me...OCD might explain it.

You can get a grip on it if you focus on not doing it. I have to make myself stop. I too have a song running through my mind when I'm working in the yard and have to tell myself to stop it. Makes me crazy.

My shrink told me that it was something I developed in childhood to help me cope. I remember starting it around the age of seven. And, he said we bring it into our adulthood because we think it will still work for us but usually, it's just an irritation.

In school, I couldn't or wouldn't allow myself to listen to the teacher until I had counted the pictures on the wall, the number of buttons on her dress/shirt, etc. and it made it extremely hard to listen. I didn't know what the problem was, just that I struggled in school and this is one reason I didn't go on to college. I had worn myself down trying to listen and count at the same time.

I will still count the number of pieces on a blouse when I'm talking to someone...collar, sleeve, etc. and that is a little crazy making. I don't remember people's names because I'm busy counting different things they're wearing. It gets very tiring but I will continue to work on it, probably for the rest of my life.

Ladies, you might be interested in knowing that the Featured Authors for next month wrote the book, The Panic Diaries. I know this is a little off topic, but thought they might be able to shed some light on these topics.

Here's the Amazon link for their book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569754187/boomerwomensp-20/103-1780810-3417441

Now that I know this Dotsie, it might be time for me to panic!

Not really. Sounds fascinating.

I asked my husband if he did the things I do and he said no and seemed surprised that I did it. So today I took notice and realized that if I'm sitting in traffic and a big truck is close to me -- I count the lug nuts -- and the windows in a bus. I especially like to count by 2's.

Could very well be one of the ways I learned to cope with stressful situations as a child and its just stuck with me. Since I cant readily "switch" anymore, I'm starting to realize all my little "ways" as I learn how to deal with emotion.

But hey -- I could be sitting in traffic smoking a cig instead of counting lug nuts ;-)

Lionspaaw, I have to confess that I get really exhausted just thinking about you sitting in traffic counting lug nuts. Next time I'm stuck at a red light, I just know I'm going to be thinking about you and wondering what you're counting right at that moment. It's amazing how a child's mind learns to cope around the things that are too overwhelming for a child to have to cope with.

I'm not a counter, and actually get headaches when doing any kind of math, including counting for too long.

I think one of my coping mechanisms was to mentally redecorate people's houses. I used to spend hours as a child imagining what colours, fabrics, and furniture I would use...right down to light fixtures and curtain rods. It became almost an obsession; I couldn't go into someone's house and relax until I had "redecorated" it. Weird. Much more relaxing for me than counting would have been. It's still something I do if I'm in an anxious (or boring) social situation.

Funny thing is -- until this thread started -- I never realized I did it or it was something "abnormal" -- it just passes the time

I dont suppose you turned out to be an interior designer did you ????

I'm sure everyone does "something" to cope with stressful (or boring) situations. I'm just not sure if it would be considered a "mental illness" (I think that was the question many posts back that started this whole thing on counting)

Dianne -- any news from your sister?

My sister? About? Forgive me, I get lost easily.

I had a friend that was a counter but he had to count things that could be divided by 3. Now that would be tiresome.

Maybe that's why I write. I don't count when I'm writing.

Your sister was worried about her DIL - your nephew thought she might be having some mental issues ???

Oh. Duh. My sister said she is not going to offer any more advice or input because my nephew doesn't seem to appreciate it. He's gone from talking about leaving her to tolerating it.

Funny, someone mentioned why it took so long for me to get diagnosed. From the time I was a teenager, I have been to shrink after shrink, and noone figured out the bipolar part until I was 40 years old. Guess my lack of control and the fact I went to one of the best in the country had something to do with it. heehee. I had been diagnosed as a child with ADHD, which is mistakenly diagnosed in a LOT of bipolar cases. I was also diagnosed with OCD, the funny thing being that now that I'm on the lithium, the OCD is not nearly as bad as it used to be. I got a whale of a story for ya, maybe one day when I have plenty of time, I'll relate my wild and crazy life! Later guys!

I had similar problems getting diagnosed - I was in my 40's before I finally found someone that understood what was the cause of my bizarre life, and I found him because I had pretty well figured it out myself and went searching for someone who specialized in that area.

Makes you wonder about the mental health field

Dianne - I guess there really isnt anything your sister can do but back off -- lets just hope nothing more serious comes of this !!!