Really, is looking at porn a form of infidelity?

Ok, here it goes.
In May I accidentally discovered that my husband had been viewing pictures of naked women and some other porn sites on his computer-for quite some time, in my estimation. [ I had wondered why he had disabled the HISTORY function on his computer] I asked him about the porn, he admitted to it, but swore that he was not chatting/or in contact with anyone online. He said it was like viewing a Playboy magazine. I told him it bothered me. He knew I was upset. It is not like a magazine in my opinion.

I should explain that my husband and I are both in our early 50's. His work hours have recently increased to 10-12 hour days. So his time at home is limited. We are also finally at home alone withouth kids for the first time in 25 years. So, the 2 plus hours he spends on the computer in the evenings (in a different room - far from where I am) is definitely noticeable.

Well, in August he was careless again and left a few of the pictures on his browser and I found them one morning when I needed to get online (my computer was not working and he knew that).
I told him that his porn/nude viewing made me feel unattractive to him. He didn't say much, just that he was not dead and it is like looking at an attractive girl walking by in a bikini. I pointed out that the worst part of all of it is that when he does have a few hours at home, he prefers to be on the computer viewing these pictures/web pages and not spending time with me/ as a couple.
I know men are totally visual, but , I still feel cheated on. I wonder if he needs these perfect bodies to stimulate him sexually. He wouldn't answer me.
I don't want to come across like a parent to him, and I told him that. I said I can't control him, only myself ,and I didn't know what I might need to do to feel attractive again. (Kind of a threat I know- very open ended,however).

Well, now I find that when he comes home late (after I am in bed) he turns on the cable channels that have the late night- soft porn shows. (He no longers seems to be viewing the porn on the internet).
Help me. Am I being overly sensitive to this need he seems to have? OR is it really a form of cheating??
We have watched a few MATURE movies together in the past. And I suggested that - but he did not seem at all interested in sharing the activity any longer.
Any thoughts or has anyone had first hand (no pun intended) experience with this in a relationship?

Kay, do you think your hubby would go to a therapist with you so you could talk aobut this. He needs to har that what he is doing is wrong from someone other than you. I think it would be beneficial for both of you to be able to talk this out with guidance from another person.

Please know you aren't alone. There have been several posts about this very topic from other women in the forums during recent months.

The amount of porn on the internet sickens me. I can't stand the fact that it's literally at the finger-tips of our youth.

ladybug, thank you so much. It isn't easy to be alone when it seems like everyone else on earth does whatever it takes to get their needs met. Your encouragement is very much appreciated.

Daisygirl

I am still trying to determine IF it is something that is WRONG??? On one hand, I feel that it is because it bothers me - and I am one half of this relationship/marriage and have been for over 30 years.

And yet the media today, including movies, books, TV and the internet treat this activity (PORN) so casually.

Our sex life has improved since confronting him back in May - or I wonder if it coincides with our children leaving the nest ??? I just feel devalued - and think that is enough to ask if he feels passion and desire for ME- or does it take the nude pictures for him to get turned on??

Declaring his love for me should be enough, right? And yet, somehow, I feel like an old pair of favorite shoes that he loves. I want to feel like he WANTS me in the bedroom and really all of the time - I can't compete with the models' bodies on the internet ( I am not in bad shape and can still pass for a much younger woman than my birthdays add up to)!!

As anyone can tell, this subject is gnawing at me.

Here's a test and its been mentioned in these forums before... if a spouse tells you there's nothing wrong with viewing porn, say to them, "Good...then you won't mind if I tell you Mother."

JJ

Ouch, J.J!

Talk about a test!

danita

[ September 24, 2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Danita ]

::claps:: well, said JJ =)

What a GREAT line!

JJ stop stealing my stuff?? No actually have at it. This one ploy really works to curb that particular stupid response. I heard Dr. Phil say once that any time spent on the computer or TV or reading magazines about sex or doing phone sex (be still my heart and pocketbook) is cheating, no doubt about it.

Now KayB you've said he stopped and that your sex life is improved. I think maybe you are looking a gift horse in the mouth so to speak. In no marriage on the planet is a woman, or man for that matter, as sexy and desirable as when all was new and exciting. Fact of life!!! I hate men looking at magazines, the porn sites or like my ex frequenting the strip bars...while professing his undying love for me. OH sure, yea, uh huh! Kicked him to the curb. Men are only wicked little boys after all and most men are pigs. Truth, no way to sweeten that pie. I know I make my living talking to these screwed up useless, mostly married aging losers trying to live in some fantasy land.....Unless they are rolling in dough, most younger women worth there salt wouldn't give these relics the time of day, not for very long anyhow. Does it hurt, hell yes it hurts, it hurt me terribly when it happened not so much because I loved the ex but because I felt slighted, jealous not of him, but of the bodies these women had, their youth and the fact that no matter how pretty I was or how sexy I acted, I would NEVER be YOUNG again, and that killed me....and I'm being honest...Women are realists, men are not and there lies the problem....

[ September 25, 2005, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Chatty Lady----your comments are precise and to the point. I think you have the qualifications (I have read some of your other comments on other topics and know your profession) and insight to get a degree in counselling!! You go girl.

I think I earned my degree in experience alone. Also I wrote an advice column here locally and also when living in Illinois...I really believe that if thought about HONESTLY, really being honest with "ourselves" we know the answers, and would be able to handle our problems well on our own but unfortunately too many of us think of the kids, the impression it might make, finances (important one) our relatives, God, being alone in our old age and this and that and on and on and our happiness ends up taking second place to all those things...There are no easy answers. One solution does not fit all!

[ September 25, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Kay5,

My ex likes porn. It always bothered me during our marriage, so he hid it from me. In fact, recently I told him that I'd found porn in our son's room and of course, he pointed out that he likes porn and sees nothing wrong with it. I told him and I told my son that I think it harms men's relationships with real women.

But you say your husband suddenly works 10-12 hours a day. Are you sure about that? My ex started to do that also or so he said. But it turned out he was having an affair, which led to the end of our marriage. I also am pretty sure he was visiting prostitutes. Or call girls. I say this because I found some evidence on the credit card bills.

DJ
I suppose anything is possible, but , in this case it really is work that has him away from home. And my husband is not distant to me, in fact all the little indicators of hand holding, hugging, kissing me goodbye every time he leaves the house are ever present.
I know, I know.....I don't want to be like so many women and have a blind eye to the possibility he is having an affair. In my gut, I don't have any sense that is the case - I feel 99.99% sure of that. (Yes, I guess you have to leave it open that anything is possible).

I am not unhappy in my marriage, just distressed with the porn. I have decided when the time is right for a discussion on the topic with him, I will use some of the input I have rec'd on this forum. Specifically, that viewing porn is considered by some (Dr. Phil etc.) to be a form of cheating on your spouse.

DJ
I suppose anything is possible, but , in this case it really is work that has him away from home. And my husband is not distant to me, in fact all the little indicators of hand holding, hugging, kissing me goodbye every time he leaves the house are ever present.
I know, I know.....I don't want to be like so many women and have a blind eye to the possibility he is having an affair. In my gut, I don't have any sense that is the case - I feel 99.99% sure of that. (Yes, I guess you have to leave it open that anything is possible).

I am not unhappy in my marriage, just distressed with the porn. I have decided when the time is right for a discussion on the topic with him, I will use some of the input I have rec'd on this forum. Specifically, that viewing porn is considered by some (Dr. Phil etc.) to be a form of cheating on your spouse.

Kay5,

I have really stepped up flirting and "engaging" my husband.

They so need to feel like they are "wanted men". I figure if I don't do it, somebody else will.

Sex isn't as important to me as affection is - but I am mindful of what HE needs.

It has made HIM a more attentive husband (like now, he just walked in to check my coffee situation - isn't that sweet).

I know sometimes I get tired of being the family caretaker - and that I'm always "putting out" for others...I also figure that I reep what I sow...and as I said, I'm begining to see it come back from my husband after 20 years.

For ladies who still have a twinkle of hope in their marriage - be creative -- be flirty -- be wild -- be confident! Most men love that!

danita

[ September 26, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Danita ]

Marriage is work, no matter how you look at it. That being said, if something hurts the other partner it is wrong, no matter what it is. For a small ex: Say your husband tells a joke that offends you. It stops being a joke, when it offends or hurts the other person. You can apply porn or anything else to this.
Personally, I think if a man looks at porn, he is not sitting there just looking, more is going on through his head and/or body and mind. I would ask, "If God came for you while you were watching porn, would you feel you would be ready to meet him?" I am sorry, but I am up front and honest in what I believe. I did not mean to offend anyone though!

Junbebug, I agree with what you've said and Danita seems to have her man under control so to speak. Like I said earlier, no solution fits all. Unfortunately there will always be porn and someone to look at it. I do not now nor have I ever agreed with the premise that it is okay. It has never caused any marriage to be better, nor caused a man to want and/or love his wife more. It is a bad and hurtful thing. I totally agree with Dr. Phil, its cheating even if its just time he is taking away from his wife, but it is never ever just time. Usually what starts out with a dirty magazine escalates over time to TV porn then computer porn and wanting more so the adult store boths and then the strip clubs and the lap dances and on and on and on. It is never enough for their male egos. I still think that when they say theres nothing wrong with porn, say to them okay then lets discuss it with "your" mother!! Amazing how defensive they become then. Oh if only this were a perfect world, heck I'd still be happily married.

[ September 26, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Danita,

I am so on the same page with you! In fact after my first discovery of the porn that my husband was viewing, I sat back and really looked at myself and our relationship.

I confess that I had not always put him first - with children at home it was easier to fall into the trap of doing for them all of the time; and whatever was leftover ,was what I had to give to my husband. Not a good regime, I knowl

So, that is when I made the decision to put his needs first - pay more attention to him (flirt , and be overall a better wife and partner) and US - the couple. It has paid off, I think, in many wonderful ways. So, I was very disappointed and saddened when I made the more recent discoveries of his porn viewing.

Maybe old habits are hard to give up?

I don't want to make this an issue that comes between us, however, I do plan to address it with him- AGAIN. I am lucky that my husband is very considerate and I think he will understand my distress once I make my feelings extremely clear!~

And thanks to all of you.....from almost every entry I have taken away some bit of insight to the situation- or about myself. I feel more empowered and secure to make my marriage the best it can be!

I was also very upset when I discovered my husband was looking at porn on my laptop. I kind of got suspicious when he put a password on his
account (he's not very computer savvy). I found out one day when I was doing a virus scan and there were certain words showing up on the files being scanned. They were all temporary internet folders under his account name. He denied and denied it and I knew he was lying. He finally fessed up. I was more upset that he lied so vehemently and got mad at me for not believing him! And he wonders why I am still convinced that he cheated on me in the past...How do you believe someone who lies so much?
My biggest problem with the porn is that I try so hard to keep our marriage holy. I gave up
contracepting years ago because I came to believe that it was leaving God out of a very important part of our relationship. It separates the sexual act with procreation, which is basically what porn does.

I would never assume that I have my husband "under control"...I'm just doing my best to keep him entertained! LOL!

Kay, good for you for seeing how you could improve things for the two of you.

I'm sure you know, when approaching him, timing is everything!

Keep the faith!

danita

how do you "hack" into his computer? We had a "discussion" about this just last week. I asked him why every time I came downstairs to basement when he was on computer that he immediately closed the site? After I confronted him about this and other things that led up to this, he said that he goes in chat rooms. I asked him if he was having a "cyberaffair" and he said' yeah, I'm having sex with the computer". I have to admit that I have gotten to the point that I don't even attempt sex anymore and I have very little interest. I am 51 yrs old. it has never been good, now it is almost nonexistent. He has "magic pills" that
are never used. I joked when he got them , I think he was given 10 pills, I joked with him that they would last us 10 yrs! I makes me feel better knowing that my husband is not the only guy out there not interested in sex, although I do admit that I do not even make the effort either. but agai, how do I get into his computer to see what he is looking at? (I am not computer literate) It took me awhile to figure out how to even send these posts!

beachlady,

You need to look for the HISTORY on the computer. HISTORY can even be listed under GO on some computers. OR - if a web page has been left on the screen you can use the back button < to see previous sites listed. That is how I first discovered -by accident- that he was viewing porn on the computer.

My husband had 'turned off' the HISTORY on his computer - and I just happened to' turn it back on'....that's how I found out about the second go 'round, that he had NOT stopped visting the porn sites.

But going into settings to change the HISTORY might be a bit trickier until you become a little more computer saavy!! And you will learn, I am certain, don't be afraid...!

I hope things can work out for you and your marriage. Good luck.

Oh be still my heart (and my mouth) geesh. And the moon is made of blue cheese or better yet I have some swamp land in Florida for sale cheap!!

When you get to know me better and the way I think, my ramblings will be obvious to you. In the meantime please feel free to interpret them anyway you would like to....

[ October 08, 2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Booze, Drugs and Porn are all so very addictive and such an insult to a spouse who's husband is drinking, drugging or watching that filth instead of spending quality time with her. It is true that we shouldn't be like sheep and follow the all mighty TV personality just because they say its true, doesn't make it so. Watching porn is not healthy yet if both partners like it and see it together as an enhancement to their relationship, great. Its one of those subjects Ladybug people will never agree on. It can be a hurtful thing to any marriage not because TV show hosts say so but because it just can and all too often it is...so sad too!

I feel exactly the same way you do Ladybug. No one can or will ever agree on everything. I have just read here and seen so much misery resulting from porn elsewhere that it saddens me. I too wish it would go away but as you say getting rid of it is easier said than done. Now there are probably men who can watch it and just walk away unscathed but they are not the norm. Most of the men I deal with (thousands) are also into watching porn one way or another. I have asked them (and myself) many times, "what are they looking for and why?" Needless to say no one seems to know and simply stutter alot unable to answer intelligently. I think the most popular answer I receive is, "ahh hell, why not, it don't hurt nutin?" Spoken more eliquently at times but means the same thing, thy don't know.
Oh and thanks for the info on old Dr. Phil, hadn't heard that before....

[ October 08, 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

it doesn't matter whether or not porn is or isn't infidelity...all that matters is the event of one person not liking it when their significant other indulges...
many a porn-viewer will tell you it's just for fun, means nothing, etc -- as such it should be easy enough to forego in the greater interest of maintaining respect and trust with one's other half...
most of us have given up relatively insignificant habits and indulgences for the greater good of our relationships...porn-viewing, for some, falls in the same category as flirting and/or staring at others...
there is no right or wrong, only preferences...

those who think porn is fine no doubt have preferences of their own that those who don't like porn might find petty and reflective of an insecurity...

this could well be question #3,095 for the dating questionnaire: i don't like porn at all...if you currently view it, will you stop for me?

It's makes me sad to say that porn has infiltrated our lives via tv, books, magazines, music, and music videos, it's all over the internet. I'm shocked at what I see in advertisments alone!

I would not be interested in a man who viewed pornography or purchased girly magazines or anything like that. I'll probably be single a long time, won't I?

Daisyggirl

Amen Daisygirl... there are enough child molestors out there as it is...a very good point you've made too. There doesn't seem to be any line drawn for censorship in ads. I cringe sometimes when I see the commericals showing models with practically nothing on... if they are doing that NOW, what will commercials be like say in five years? ten?

The cheap thrills men get from girly magazines leads to wanting more, and more... what's next for them? porn? children? I detest it.

To me, and I bet Chatty will agree with me here, porn is like a drug. They may start out with wacky weed, but pretty soon, they need something better... a bigger thrill... so they move on to what? I don't even know what's next, but you get my point. One cheap thrill leads to another.

JJ

I have a real problem with this type of thing. I have been on my own for 10 years but would not like it if my husband looked at porn on a regular basis. I think some men just look out of curiousity but to others it becomes a drug. My parents are 79 and 80. They have been married for 53 years. My mom is a control freak and always has been. My Dad has let her get away with it...until now. He is in a wheel chair with only one leg and doesn't get out much. So... I gave him a computer last year. He didn't use it much and my Mom loved sending emails. She tried to get my Dad interested in using the computer too but he just ignored it. Until a friend got him to look at some porn. Now he spends hours looking at it. My Mom is horrified. They have not had a sex life since they were in their fourties. I don't like them talking to me about this type of thing but they seem to need to. My Mom tells me that it's my Dad's fault, that he lost interest, and he tells me the exact opposite story. Anyway she is confiding in me and asking me what she should do. She wants to cut off the Internet. I find it all very uncomforable and wish they would talk to someone else about it but my Mom likes to keep up appearances and act like they have a perfect marriage. I think my Dad has found something to get back at her as he says he has finally had it with the control issue. She sneaks up on him when he is watching TV to see what he is watching, it's really pathetic. She is at him constantly...what are you doing in the fridge, what are you watching on TV, who was that on the phone etc. She refuses to associate with his friends and wants to control him like a little kid. She dislikes anyone he likes, won't let them come to the house etc. She puts out his clothes, cuts his hair. It drives me crazy because she is always complaining about him to me and I feel really caught in the middle.
Any suggestions as to how I can handle this porn thing. I told her that she can't cut of the Internet as he would just get it back on and that she can't really take away his rights as he is not a kid. I cut it off at my house because my eldest son was always on the porn sites so she thinks that she can do that to my Dad. On one hand I can understand as he is home alone all day and can't go anywhere and is bored, probably sexually frustrated to boot, but it also bugs me that he is looking at porn. So now she is doing the no talking routine which she always does when she is mad at him, which is often. She is so disgusted with him that it makes her sick and says she has lost all respect for him. I can also understand her point of view to. I just tell her to go out, be with friends and get a life as they don't really do anything together anyway.
I just wondered what others thought about this.
Kate

Katebcca,

If you don't want to be included in your parents ongoing battle, you have a right to tell them so. It will cause some friction between you at first, but it may make them both work some sort of truce if they don't have you to complain to.

I had to set some boundaries with my mother. She would complain to me about my siblings and for a long time I listened but I learned how to not take on her problems.

Daisygirl

JJ I do agree with you and also will add that porn is here to stay...unfortunately!

Katebbca as difficult as it is to remain completely impartial when it concerns your parents and their marital problems, you should try. Be honest with them both and tell them that it hurts you deep in your heart and soul to hear them belittle one another, that you refuse to take sides. Tell them if they insist on trying to include you into their marital problems you won't visit any more...As far as your dad and the porn goes it sounds like thats all he has right now especially being an invalid unable to pursue outside activities. I have no answers for you regarding that, I wish I did. Personally I would steer clear of that as well. It's between him and his conscience....

Thanks for the advice. I know that I shouldn't allow myself to get in the middle. I was critized and controlled by my mother so I can relate to what my Dad is going through. I have asked my mother before not to talk about my Dad. I've explained that it is difficult for me to hear about it. Her response was "oh but it's ok for you to complain about your son's drug problems, but when I have to talk to you about your father you don't want to listen" something like that. My son was a drug addict for years, put me through hell, but I went for counselling and joined a group with other parents of drug addicts. She asked me about him and I told her. I really don't think it's the same thing at all but she won't get it. If I say I don't want to talk about it because it upsets me or whatever, then she will just give me the silent treatment for weeks and say that she can't talk to me and I'm just like my father. It's really a no win situation. I am going to talk less to her though. She calls me every day which is too much. If she doesn't hear from me one day she calls to see why I haven't called. Anyway this post should be in the parent section. I just found it relevent to the topic on men watching porn. Thanks for listening.
Kate

Kate, I believe in setting boundaries in relationships. There was once a topic in our family on which Mom and I totally disagreed. One day I got up my nerve and told her that we obviously disagreed, and the issue was getting in the way of our relationship. I asked if we could please not talk about it any more because when we did, we got nowhere except upset with one another. It felt awkward because I knew she needed to talk about it, but we dropped it. I felt selfish, but it worked. We had other, more pleasant things to talk about that didn't divide us.

I'm sure it will be hard for you to set boundaries at this point, but it might be worth a try. Also, you are wise to tell her to get a life. She needs to have soemthing else to focus on.

The porn issue repulses me. Sorry. This may sound odd, but you gave them the computer right? can you say you need it back? Nevermind, I think that's probably notht e thing to do.

I just offered up prayers for you and your parent's relationship. I am sorry you have to deal with this day in and day out.

I have to say I am not sure I see the difference between women addicted to bodice tearing romance novels and men wanting to look at naked women. I guess since I don't have porn in my house (to my knowledge)that maybe I just haven't walked in those shoes. I can relate to the frustration of not having sex with the idea that a husband would then cruise porn sites.

Well, here is my take on it. If it doesn't nourish a marriage, it's wrong. So, if a wife refuses to have a sexual relationship with her husband and he chooses to get a release from the computer, which one is wrong? Both?

Kate, maybe this is a payback to your mom because of her treatment of your father. Maybe this is the only way he knows to get even, so to speak. Maybe he just go tired of the control and is striking back.

In Florida, the mayor began posting the names in the local newspaper of men (most elderly) who had been arrested for soliciting prostitutes. The incidence of HIV was rising among the elderly and the mayor wanted to warn their wives through this venue. She didn't want the men passing on the HIV to their wives. I guess it's more prevelent than we all realize.

So, I guess my question would be: Which is worse. Searching the Internet looking at pictures or actively seeking sex from a woman on the street? Both wrong but I'd take the Internet sex over in person acts.

I actually thought about the getting back thing. My dad is so sick of my mom controlling his every move that I think he is trying to get back at her.
Anyway I am going to try to talk to her about not talking to me about personal issues. I am almost 50 and still can't be open and honest with my mother and it's time to stop walking on egg shells around her. I will get the silent treatment for sure. She thinks by not talking to me she's hurting me but she's really just hurting herself by behaving this way.
My dad watching porn is something I don't really want to know about and wish I didn't. As for my mom venting on this site, to punish my dad and make him feel bad she refuses to use the computer anymore. Another way that she is hurting herself not my Dad. Cutting off her nose to spite her face. She really doesn't get it.
As for taking back the computer there is no way I can do that as it was a gift and they know I have a computer. He doesn't just look at porn either. He is from Europe and catches up on the news in his birth country.
I guess I'm torn and feel the need to listen as they are older now and won't be around forever. I had alot of resentment towards my Mom for years but now figure I needed to let all that go and except the fact that they did what they knew at the time. I just make a real effort to have boundaries with my children and keep the lines of communication open. I don't want to repeat the pattern as it screwed me up for years.
Kate

Katebcca, sorry to say it but this sounds like one time when someone refusing to speak to you would be a good thing. As far as you father looking at whatever he's looking at, it's his business and as I said earlier it isn't like he can jump up and run out looking for a hooker. Your mom sounds like a real piece of work, shes made herself miserable and wants everyone else to be miserable to...all you can do is love them if even from afar.

Some people thrive on misery. My mom does. Like you, I don't want to know what my dad is doing sexually but during a phone conversation, he just had to tell me how he'd cheated on my mom for years until he got saved. Like I wanted to know that. But, I think he's paid dearly for it ever since. My mother rules the roost and has for many years.

You hate to say it and I hate to think it, but you are spot on.
Kate

OK here's my 2 cents. I view myself as an authority on the subject since I am currently dealing with a divorce with porn at the center core.

My husband was intro'd to porn when he was approx. 13. He found playboy under the seat of his dad's car. They say that viewing porn between the years of 13 and 17 does something to the brain of a young man.

Now after 24 years of marriage the porn--which I had no idea he was doing--had taken control. No longer was viewing women satisfying enough--he had turned to viewing men and children! That is another trap of porn--once you are hooked you have to have more and worse versions to maintain the same effects.

He sacrificed our marriage and our family for porn. Now he sits in a federal jail somewhere waiting for a trial. I am sitting waiting for a court date for divorce. I am without funds, health insurance and retirement savings because of the addiction of porn.

No man-or woman- should EVER consider porn to be a trivial thing it WILL destroy everything it can if given the room to do so.

By the way, for the gal who isn't sure if it's cheating or not. 2 verses from the bible. One states that even if you have THOUGHT about sex with someone else it's cheating. Once the mind is involved the deed is done! Can't find the reference on that one right now.

#2 1 Corinthians 5:6
I am writing to you that you must not associate....is sexually immoral...with such a man do not even eat.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.....

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality.

There's many more -- these were all on the same page so I jotted them down for you. I wish I could find the one on the thoughts--it's in there, but I can't remember where. Anyway, the bible is clear--it's wrong and very dangerous and destructive.

Knowing what I know now--I would be running to a counselor just as fast as I could and I wouldn't leave till it's all out on the table. Then if there's even one slip-up I'd be leaving.

There's no point is staying with someone who doesn't want you, and fanticizes about a life with someone else--even if they are on paper or a screen. Do we really want ot sell ourselves so short? When you've lost your love, dignity and self-worth, what's left? You no longer like yourself--and no amount of $$ can buy it back.

Sorry I'll get off my soapbox now.....

Starting over, it's all about sharing our views.
You just happen to have a seat right up front, and capable of sharing from life experience.
Frankly, I'm proud of you for being on that soapbox, and sharing your pain, for the well being of others. Hopefully, someone will heed your words and use your knowledge.
May you continue to heal.

Brenda

Bless your heart. You've really been through a bad time. I feel so bad for you. I hope this all ends for you very soon. Prayers coming your way. And, I deeply appreciate your input on this topic. You're right on.

I have to ask....what kind of 'PICKLE' is Dr. Phil experiencing??

Starting over, you can stay on that soap box as long as you want. You speak the truth. I think you should shout it from the roof tops.

What are you doing with your frustration and anger over this? I'm sure you hurt to the core of your being. I am so sorry you are going through this tough time. Please know I am thinking of and praying for you and your family! I wish I could do more.

Due to the internet, kids are getting sucked in at earlier ages. I'm afraid this is an issue that is going to balloon with future generations.

response to beachlady from me -Kay5 "I hope things can work out for you and your marriage. Good luck."

from chattylady-"Oh be still my heart (and my mouth) geesh. And the moon is made of blue cheese or better yet I have some swamp land in Florida for sale cheap!!"

I am sorry that you are in such a negative place with regard to men and marriage.
Is that because your job is that of a 'phone sex operator' ? (I read some of your other forum comments on other topics.)

Maybe I don't see the whole picture - but isn't phone sex considered porn? And isn't that part of the problem - perpetuating and supporting an 'industry' that is viewed by nearly 1/2 of the population (women) as deviant behaviour?

[ October 11, 2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Kay5 ]

K honey, she wasn't responding to anything you posted.

Dianne,
My mistake, I guess. I sure read it as a response to my good wishes to beachlady with regard to her marriage- and felt sarcasm in the response.

I am sorry if I got it wrong.

Kay5,

there were posts that were deleated between yours and Chatty's.

danita

Ahhh, I see. And who deletes them? An Admin.?

It was an accident.

D.

Kay5..When someone quits the group like ladybug did, they can go in and delete all their posts which leaves gaps and it appears your answering someone elses and I was responding to some of the missing now, ladybug posts and..YES phone sex is definitely porn, no doubt about it. I have managed to gather more information about relationships or lack of same from not only women but from the men themselves and have a multitude of material for my book. Plus I can and do give qualified advice from the secrets and thoughts of the men I talk with. Men of different races, backgrounds, ages and situaions. Wealthy men, poor men, single men, gay men but MOSTLY MARRIED MEN. Who better to ask advice than from a woman privie to the thoughts and dreams of these cheating losers. I make no excuse for what I do, it pays very well and gives me the opportunity to learn and then to council from what I have learned. I have fallen victim to porn as well in the past and hate it for what it can become and create between a man and woman. People that know me know that 'phone actress' is what I do not who I am and I apologize to no one. I have been looked to by psychologist friends for advice with clients that would not be forthcoming about porn, about their feelings and gulit for the failure of a marriage. Anyway its complicated and not relevent here. I do other much nicer work as well as a freelance writer, foster numerous animals for the SPCA and have my own RE business. I am a Jill of all trades so to speak. Good question by the way!

[ October 11, 2005, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Chatty,
Your honesty and your hard won wisdom is wonderfully refreshing.
smile

Chattylady
Ok...I do believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, everyone is entitled to work at whatever job they can perform to the best of their ability. And you sound happy that your work is satisfying to you - and you should not have to apologize for the choices in your life.

I wrestle with just how long you will work in the porn industry to gather research for your book?-
My hope is that you will take all of the valuable info./insight you have acquired, and try to spread the word against men using serivces like yours!! For Pete's sake.....I look forward to you appearing on TV with Oprah!!!! (or Dr. Phil).

Believe it or not, I've been judged and condemned for working with battered women because there is a small percentage of people that believe "these women" not only ask for it, they like it. I invited Chatty to my website and let the women there ask her everything they wanted to know about the men who are her customers. They had a lot of questions too!

After being judged by my family for so many years and backing down to their beliefs, I have chosen to stop judging others. I don't have the right because all I have to do is look at myself for the things I've done wrong. I will never judge Chatty for what she does because it isn't my right and it isn't my business. All in all, how does Chatty's line of work change us anyway?

"These women" cannot like it. If they are "guilty" of anything, it's loving a man that they hope will change.
People who judge them (and you) are the twisted ones.

Bluebird,

Would you clarify your post. I don't understand what you are saying.

danita

In our lives we have all had to do things we really didn't enjoy doing. Sometimes, "those things" are done for support of our families, or friends.

Some times, we support the "whole" through the gift of words and wisdom that comes from experience.

Life lessons, shared knowledge passed along so we can be aware of how others think and feel, using that knowledge for growth.

Personally, I'm thankful of those gifts.

OOPS! I guess my post wasn't clear! I was replying to Dianne's post about some people judging her and saying that battered women like being battered. What I meant was that battered women do not like it, they are sometimes staying with the man because they love them and hope to change them. I was saying that whoever would judge battered woman, or Dianne for working with them, are the twisted ones. I apologize if anyone thought I meant the women or Dianne were twisted.
Just goes to show how I can write something with one intention and it could be read so differently. I will try to be more careful in my wording.

Thank you all for understanding my soapbox rantings. yes, I plan to write a book about this experience--just looking for the best avenue to approach it so that it isn't a tell'all.

Chatty, I had no idea your work was on the phone. May I ask, how do you seperate the work from the rest of your life? Doesn't it bleed over or taint how you react to others? I've always wondered how anyone keeps something like that seperated--like police or firemen--how do you not 'take it home with you'? Just curious, not trying to be nosy.

WEstern, thanks so much for the clarification, and responding to my email. I so appreciate it. NOw I sound like my daughter!

B.bird,

The post didn't sound like something YOU would say - thanks for clarifying it!

danita

It's funny, Danita, it sounded so right the way I wrote it, but when I went back to read how it could have been misunderstood, I saw how it could have. Lesson learned!

(wiping sweat from brow)..

it's o.k. bluebird, it's o.k.!

d.

Well starting over, my work is in several areas. I am a foster care giver for abused and/or abandened animals until permanent homes can be found which I do for free. I am also an Activity Director of sorts for a nursing home, I make special meals for them on occassion, also a volunteer job. Recently I started a new business doing paperwork for Realtors in my home, that is really beginning to take off but sketchy and not able to pay my living expenses yet....I have done phone sex actress work sincde 1985 when I needed to work from home to be there for my sons. I have always done very well with it and make good money. I began to write and sell my stories of Erotica to several magazines. I also write freelance, poems, flash fiction etc. Phone actress work became a counciling job for me as well. Many of these men are miserable, lonely or just bored, some are selfish and the things they likie they don't feel they can share with their spouseor friends. I am an anonymous voice on the phone and you wouldn't belive what they will confide in me. I have assisted hundreds of these men in how to be more of a husband, what women want and why. Not all of it is sexual conversation believe me. I am not the norm however most of phone sex is a woman talking about sexual things and the man "tickling his fancy" so to speak. I have been interviewed for Jennifer Laurens Solo Bliss's website and have a article there under Work....also appear in Releasing Times Magazine by Julie Gallagher and in a new book coming out in 2006 by Joan Price
called: Better Than I Ever Expected: Talk About Sex After Sixty....Sex is here to stay and interesting to many people. My job's unique and takes a certain kind of talent. I can and have done many things in my long life but this is so easy andthe money is so good that I am spoiled. I have no out of pocket expenses and make a good living. Would I appreciate me if I were some mans wife, hell no! But I don't call them, they call me. I can call in or ot whenever ai choose and can work any part of 24/7. Its great for shut-ins, or people unable to work outside the home for any reason. I could appear on Oprah or Dr. Phil and give both a run for their money conversation wise. I also have written two different relationship advice columns.

I do not carry my work home so to speak, once I call off I forget about it. Read the article on Solo Bliss or in Releasing Times it tells it like it is. I too was a victim of porn with my ex, SLUGGO! But he liked the real thing and young, very very young...sick man! Lets just say I hear the worst side of some of these married loser types and dislike them intently but do like the ability to be able to work at home and make a good living. I've turned it into a game and that works for me. I am an actress and nothing more. In all honesty I would rather make my living with my Mystery writing but that hasn't happened yet. I do answer any and all questions (in private emails) you ladies might have. Hey its free and good advice and in the strictest of confidence...pull up a couch Dr. Love will see you now. LOL

[ October 12, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

What wonderfully honest women there are here. Very interesting and very uplifting to read the posts.

re: "Really, is looking at porn a form of infidelity". I am not sure if I do believe that watching pornography amounts to infidelity. Porn is not physically having sex with another person. But is does take precious time away from a mate.

I do believe that porn can be unhealthy mentally, and will in time damage a loving relationship. I also think that one can become very addicted to porn. Porn is not just looking at women (or men) who are nude. There is lots of sexual action going on, most have a partner or several and are performing sex acts. We must be realistic and understand that men watching these movies are not sitting there with "idle hands". I would certainly hate to find out that any man I was in love with or simply dating would spend time on the computer looking for porn or going to pornographic movies.

A friend once tried to convince me to watch a porno film with him, he said it was an art film. (yeh right! smiling). I said no, but he left it at my house. I was tempted enough to take a look. Not pretty! Lots of noises and groans. Boring!! I feel asleep almost immediately; I awakened much later they were still groaning. At first I could not figure out the sounds. When I did, my first thought was "Oh Lord, what if I had died, this is how my loved ones would have found me." A very sobering thought. I had a long talk with my friend as to the how's and why's of watching such a "stupid" thing and he told that men sometimes *need* more excitement than women. I do not believe that is true. I am sure catching my man watching these movies would make me feel violated and hurt my feelings. A man doing this must know that if found out, his wife will be hurt by his actions, so you have to ask yourself why would he do it? Probably because he thinks he won't get caught. In that way is is most like infidelity.

Vannie(~.~)

And the beat goes on, I guess.

This topic was discussed (among other guy related issues-like strip clubs) this past Tues. Nov. 1, on the Oprah show. Jay Leno and two other celebs (can't remem. their names - journalists, I think) made 'light' of the issue of porn and visiting strip clubs. Anyone else happen to see this show?

The consensus was that ALL guys do it (view porn) even the ones that say they don't . Jay Leno did caution that if a man does it hours on end , then it could present a problem in his relationship with a woman. Basically, these men saw nothing wrong with it - said it is just a visual need ALL men have.

I was somewhat put off (offended?) by the rather flip 'tone' of the whole show. More of a comedy routine than a real look at the issues from the man side. A lot of excuses for what they said is just innocent male behavior. The whole attitude of the show gave validation to the porn habit.

Maybe there have been more in depth objective TV shows etc. prior to my personal discovery - there sure is quite a bit on the internet that covers the issue of porn viewing and it's abuses.

With porn being the leading money maker on the internet - it would seem reasonable to assume that porn does affect many more relationships (adversely) than we (women) are even aware of?

Why am I stuck on this issue of porn?......I just think that it is an ever growing concern in our society (the world , for that matter) that will never go away. And if the media continues to treat this topic in such a dismissive way , women will never be heard by men on what it's (porn) affects are on a relationship.


Maybe Oprah thought her show would help in some way...I certainly can't project her intentions - she is an entertainer, after all, however, I was profoundly disappointed in her comedic approach/portrayal of such topics.

I don't know how she could have Jay Leno on the show and discuss this topic and expect it to not take the comedy path.

FYI
Decided to check out if Oprah had a web page (well, duh, I am naive to think she wouldn't) -' lo and behold '- the discussion board on that particular show is FULL of objection as to how Oprah handled it! Maybe that means she will have a follow - up and discuss these male related topics in a more meaningful manner.

Not allowing comedians/celebrities to be the authorities!!

The web page 'address' is below:

http://boards.oprah.com/WebX?13@@.f0c98e0!DYNID=FEWN3YZBTSPOPLARAZ3RNWQ

[ November 03, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Kay5 ]

Kay5, I saw that show too and was disturbed by the "boys will be boys" tone to the discussion. I couldn't discern whether the guys were being flippant because they were embarrassed by their "exposure" or because they truly believed what they were saying. I also couldn't decide if Oprah realized early on that a serious discussion wasn't going to be possible with these three particular guests and so just decided (as if she had a choice?) to go with the flow, as distasteful as it was at times. I too was surprised that she allowed it to go that way.

I was rather disgusted by some of the flippant comments that were being made that effectively squelched any possible objection to the subject. My husband was watching with me and even he was put off by the comedic atmosphere and would have preferred a more mature "real" discussion on the subject matter.

I guess I'm in a minority here, but I don't see anything wrong with porn. My husband hasn't really been satisfying me lately, and I find that the only way I can, y'know... is with a little extra help. Am I the flawed one here?

Lo and behold....after two months this topic resurfaces!
I have a question or two for joanna23 - how old are you? How old is your husband? How long have you been married? If you are replacing the intimacy of your relationship with porn.....then yes - I think you have an issue. Communication is the key. I hope you have addressed your needs with your husband - and are not replacing your sexual practices/desires with the hidden addiction of porn. Stop now and talk to your spouse before this becomes a habit that drives a wedge into your marriage.

There is no commitment or intimacy with porn. It's lacking what a true and real partner can give you.

Well said Kay5!

Where I was once not so sure porn is a form of infidelity I am convinced of it now.

My very close friend called two weeks ago frantic and near tears as she recounted seeing "teen" websites listed on her husband's computer screen. She went ballistic because he's been "lame" in the bedroom and acts as if he's accomodating her. He's even refused her offers to pleasure him. She finds this an abnomral response on his part and I agree with her. He's acting contrite and saying he's sorry, he loves her etc., etc. We both agree he's just sorry he got caught. She says that when he stays away from this trash he's normal again but she no longer trusts his word that he's going to stay away from it. She asked me, "how do I compete with that?" She means the young, beautiful bodies he's looking at. I said, "you don't." This has been going on for ten years with them. I think she stays for the sake of their almost ten year old daughter. Since she has a well-paying job and actually is the main bread winner I told her she might start considering looking around at condos in the area. She supported this lazy man when he was laid off from a job.

They're going on a "romantic" getaway in which she said might be the deciding factor on what to do next. She admits she no longer finds him sexually attractive simply because of his penchant for viewing porn and how this is seriously affecting their marriage.

Ladies, to best understand this whole proliferation of what we call porn, we have to look at what's happened in our society, over the last twenty, twenty-five years, as to sex in general. For at least that many years, there's been a gradual shift in how society views sex.

No longer is sex seen expressly as a part of a loving, committed relationship. It has been divorced from this ideal, for quite some time. Sex has been set aside, placed in a separate category. For many, it is now viewed as merely a casual, recreational sport, completely separated from any emotional attachments whatsoever, and totally devoid of any committment. Even the ever-present threat of HIV hasn't stemmed this tide. I would be willing to bet, that at least one person on this board, has heard of someone making the statement, 'It's no big deal...it's just sex'.

There is today, a cavalier attitude toward an activity that once stood paramount as the supreme form of intimacy. Talk to a few people in their twenties, thirties, today, and see what their views are, concerning sex. You may have to go outside your sphere of personal acquaintances, to garner true responses. We generally associate with people who share our own views, our own set of values, and may need to ask outside our limited experience, to gain a more objective view.

This casul attitude concerning sex has firmly taken root in societal thinking. With the advent of the internet, this rationale has achieved furtherance, in that sexually explicit sites may be as easily accessed as any others. A veritable smorgasbord of titilating 'sex is just for fun' venues. For some, this has been just too much of a temptation to live out fantasies they otherwise may have not considered, with complete strangers. Indulging in cyber sex may become more satisfying for a person, than sharing real physical intimacy with their life partners. Considering the major sex organ of the human being is really the brain, it's possible the real partner does in no way live up to what the cyber-lover is, for the porn-viewing partner.

As well, porn sites, sex chat rooms, etcetera, have served as what some prefer thinking of as 'safe-sex', harmless pastimes. These allow a person to anonymously enjoy the 'sex-recreation' without the threat of disease, and offers a way of effectively being able to revel in the sport of sex, while at the same time, distancing one's self from any real feelings of irresponsibility of action. 'It is not real, therefore, it can't be of any consequence. It is harmless'.

And let's face it, once this attitude was in place, it wasn't long before seamier, darker, nastier, if you will, sites began proliferating at a rapid pace. More deviant, more salacious, more 'taboo sex' has come full to the forefront of the porn world. Not surprising, really. A person wallowing in the sport of sex, a frequent viewer of, or participant in, cyber sex, or avid fan of what we call porn, can become in need of much more stimulation, to be able to satisfy urges. Much as a drug addict finds he needs larger and larger doses of his preferred drug, to achieve the longed-for high.

http://www.intouchwithejeannine.com

Jeannine, You've said a mouthful and every word is correct in my estimation. Porn for the single person is a form of escape and satisfaction they might not ordinarily have BUT when it becomes a one sided issue in a marriage that takes away from that union it is an abomination, sick, like a rabid animal that should be destroyed...Now if a married couples union is a bit boring and they partake of porn together it can be helpful and fun for them as a couple. But alas all to often it is one-sided and takes away from the marriage bed. It drives a wedge consisting of sorrow, and a feeling of worthlessness in a woman whose husband deserts her emotionally and sometimes psychically to spend time with his 'fantasy partners.' Oh and you know what I do and the men I speak to, ALL OF THEM say convincingly, "its not really sex so whats the harm??" What in deed.

[ January 13, 2006, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

One thing people seem to forget is that sex was made for procreation. The reason it is pleasurable is so that people will procreate.
When you separate the act from the end result (possible new human)it gets perverted.
I think porn is so disgusting, there is nothing sexy about it in my eyes. Real love, in private, is as sexy as you can get.

ChattyLady, as you probably well know, it isn't just the male of the species falling prey to pornograpy, and the lure of cyber-sex. There are a great many women who also are deserting their real life partners, for what they feel are more gratifying sexual forays, either real, or cyber.

Bluebird, there's no denying the truth of your statements. Yet, in today's society, there is the fact that procreation has been effectively controlled. Birth control, of which my husband and I made use of ourselves, has freed, and enabled, human beings the luxury of the enjoyment of sex, for the sake of sex itself. Sexual intimacy, between two people who genuinely love and cherish one another, is an extraordinary experience. One that has been made less-than, as to its special significance, by the prevailing attitude of today's sex-saturated society.

http://www.intouchwithjeannine.com

I suppose thats true Jeannine but if it were not for the MEN going into the porn shops, viewing the sites on the web, calling the thousand phone sex numbers those companies would go bankrupt and I speak from years of knowledge of the industry itself. Women rarely frequent these sex shops except for the milder ones selling sexy clothes etc. then nusually its a group of giggling women out for a risque time together. Men take their visits to these stores very seriously. Women never call the phone sex numbers and I mean never except for a few lesbians or curious young women having these feelings for other women and not understanding them. This porn stuff is basically a man made business, for men. There are no whore houses for women to go to, just brothels for men to frequent...They should spell porn, MEN...

[ January 13, 2006, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

The problem with this internet trash is that unlike the old days where a guy had to go out to the adult book store or wherever else had it he can now effortlessly push a key and there it is.

He doesn't have to exert himself to go anywhere or spend any money. I've heard this trash is all out there for free. The husband I mentioned told his wife,"but I didn't log in." She said she told him from what she could see it was right there and no need to even log in or register.

Where do you suppose this will all end? What is the future for the porn industry?

I believe there are a lot of people out there fearful of true intimacy and why, I don't know. Chatty, any ideas?

Its a hard thing to diagnose once a man and woman have been together long enough to feel comfortable with each other. There should be no fear of intimacy because they've shared it many times already....What seems to be the million dollar question here is when does it turn sour, when does a man begin looking for something more and why? I don't believe even they know the answer to that Dianne and I have asked plenty of them that many times. After the initial blaming it on someone else, usually the spouse, with more questioning they finally admit they don't know why they do it but they need it, they want it and yes they know its not for them ever to really have but in their minds they are having a trist with these gorgeous young unatainable women that in real life they would have nor could have ever had the nerve to approach. It somehow strokes their egos. I find the entire subject a mystery and it makes me sad to know it will get worse with time. I have been on both side of this coin and neither side is healthy or satisfying...

Francine and chatty, all I can do is shake my head at your posts. You speak the truth, and the truth totally sickens me. What God has created is being destroyed by the minds of those who choose not to follow Him, and even some who do.

Francine, your mention of sex becoming a sport and less of an intimate act is true in certain circles. My heart aches for these young adults for when/if they ever grow beyond this casual attitude and desire the true intimacy a sexual relationship deserves.

I want to add something here. I just caught my husband "googling" porn sites...again...and one of my first thoughts was to blame myself, because I don't "want it" as often as he does
(he would literally do it every night if I was willing, he's never said no). Then I realized something. I've known him for almost 30 years and he's always liked porn, whether we were having sex every night or not! So it is not my fault. He is so immature in the relationship department.
I think I am going to try a separation. I've wanted to so many times, about always feel guilty
about following through.

Sex is great, sex is good and one of God's greatest gifts for our pleasure (When we are married!!)
Porn in my opinion is for insecure men who fear losing that part of their manhood that has served them well for years. Or, it is like a drug. Different drugs give us diffent results. People can get so addicted to porn that its almost as terrible an addiction as the person who can't stop eating potato chips or ice cream. They just keep getting bigger and bigger and start hiding their contraband in closets and drawers and eat when no one else is at home to see them.
Addiction is addiction is addiction......

Well then it's like those addictions in another way. If you don't admit it's a problem and don't get help, it won't go away.

The Bible says that sexual sin is against your own body (not outside yourself). If I am one flesh with this man, he is sinning against my body, which I try to keep so pure.

Bluebird, it sounds like he needs a serious lesson. The problem with most women, me included is that we threaten and threaten and never follow through. When we do however we feel better and they finally get the point...sorry to hear you are one of the walking wounded. He must be nuts!!!

[ January 14, 2006, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

No I didn't mean to say that it was just for procreation and that every act should end in a pregnancy. Or that once you are past child bearing years, you shouldn't have sex. Forgive my vagueness.
I meant that God created this as the only way to get pregnant( not talking science here, I know about in vitro, etc.). I also happen to believe that every act should be open to new life, but that is my religious belief and am not condemning anyone who believes otherwise.
I just meant when you separate the act from its intended purpose, like porn as entertainment, you pervert God's design. The design was to make sex the way we bring new humans into the world, in a loving, committed relationship (marriage). He also made it feel good so people would do it and life would go on.
So, no, I did not mean to imply anyone was sinning here. Sorry if it sounded like that.

Chatty, we discovered that our 12 year old was googling porn sites on the family computer and that he had visited many sites on a laptop we have. He had his account pasword protected (not anymore!!).
But when I accused my husband last night he really didn't deny it and then he avoided me all night, which is what he does when he's lying and guilty. So I believe I caught 2 birds with one stone here. My 12 year old is curious, my husband has a problem...

[ January 14, 2006, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

Well my 12 year old just swore to me that he did visit sites on the laptop but not on the desktop, which is where I found the google history. I just asked him to spell a certain word and he did not spell it the way it was spelled on the google search.(My husband spells things wrong all the time and the word I saw was mispelled).
My husband specifically told me that our son admitted to doing it on the desktop. How can he lie this much?? Here I felt bad that I went and told my priest all about this today.

True, it is a sin against your own body, and I don't condone porn at all. All I am saying is that we do so many things that are a sin against our own bodies and eating until we look like the Goodyear blimp is also a sin against our own bodies. Clogging our arteries though we know what does it yet we do it anyway.
Smoking cigarettes that shorten our lives and we know they are shortening our lives is a sin against our own bodies.
According to the Bible, the woman isn't to refuse her husband sex anytime he wants it BUT the man is supposed to love his own wife as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. If you love someone more than your own life, you wouldn't demand unreasonable things from it.
Filling your mind with cheesy soap operas day after day after day is a sin against your body also.
So where do you draw the line?

Well I think sex IS different in this respect - it is the only time we cooperate with God in creating life! We are co-creators with Him, which is a big responsibility.
I agree with you, though, that mis-treating your body is a sin also, it is the temple of the Lord.
Where in the Bible does it say that a wife can't refuse sex? I know it ays that a husband and wife can abstain, mutually, for various reasons.
Man, if it says in the Bible I can't refuse him I'm not showing him that!!!

Bluebird, it says to come together often and the "come" means meet in a sexual encounter. Sorry, I've been thumbing through my concordance and can't find it, but being raised as a S. Baptist minister's daughter,,,believe me, it is in there.
After a long, long pilgrimage through the religious forest for many years, I have finally come to the conclusion that I am NOT a religious person, but thankfully and wonderfully I realized a personal relationship with my Creator doesn't necessarily include a trip to church every Sunday and hanging out with those who think they have it all together in the spiritual realm. I really believe none of us has any clue about the greatness and immensity of God's love and grace. It has been the most emancipating experience of my entire life.

Number5, I totally agree with you. I am a spiritual person who believes in prayer and its power and the answers that come from God. I just don't think that the only "spiritual" people meet in Church three times a week.

Sherri

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bluebird:
Where in the Bible does it say that a wife can't refuse sex?

---

I think the following scriptures are the ones interpreted to mean that a wife should not refuse sex to her husband.

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

I was wondering if you would mind sending the scriptures that you referenced about husbands and wives abstaining. I'm just curious.

smile