the "Mosque near Ground Zero" issue

I think we all have heard about this deal by now. My own feeling is that while the idea is legal, constitutional, etc.....I feel the idea is insensitive at this point in time.

I understand the Japanese still have not built a temple near the "Arizona" in Pearl Harbor.

Though a significant number of Catholics were killed during the Jewish Holocaust, Pope John Paul II prevented a group of nuns from opening a convent near the Auschwitz concentration camp, out of respect to those who had been murdered in that awful place.

I do not see this as a matter of religious tolerance, since there is already a Mosque within a couple blocks of Ground Zero. I think it just simply comes down to sensitivity and respect.

I agree Josie. And I'm surprised that Obama isn't more sensitive to this subject too. At least his counselors should have advised him differently.

PS: I put this topic on THIS board because, sadly, we are living in an age of heightened political correctness. I truly feel this particlar topic belongs in Current Events, since it is now part of an ongoing national and even global conversation taking place via every level of communication venue.

I think it is important for us boomers here to add our two cents too. Very politely of course.

I, too, was taken aback by Obama's original comments to his Muslim audience Friday night, as compared to his "clarification" in Florida one day later. It seems in each case, his comments were geared to fit each group he was talking to.

Obama had an opportunity to bring all Americans together by expressing to his Friday night Muslim audience that while he understood the NYC Islamic Center proposal being made, he also would commend them for their wisdom in selecting a location more respectful to the many Americans and survivors of the 911 atrocity.

My son was in the military, and he helped to recover body parts for identification right after 911 happened. We do not live too far from there, and my son also lost a former schoolmate in one of the towers.

I'd like to see the 911 Memorial finished, and lots of years go by... Right now it's still so very painful to even think about.

Heres something I find odd. When those planes hit and the Twin Towers were destroyed, there was a beautiful Greek Orthodox church also destroyed. It had been there nearly 50 years. After everything died down the church wanted to rebuild yet permits were refused, not once but again and again. Still to this day permits have been denied. WHY??? These are Americans who have had their church destroyed by terrorists; so whats the problem, they have the money they need and were on that properety first anyway???

Are any of you aware that the man who wants to build the MOSCUE is now being employed by OUR Government and going to be paid by US and is being sent around the world all expenses paid (BY US) to speak on our behalf, WHAT???? Are O'Bama and his hencemen nuts? This man hates us and is the head of the insulting of our dead and us by wanting to build this monstrosity on the bones/ashes of our dead...

Talk about inviting the FOX into the henhouse. O'Bama is a jackass as far as most are concerned who seems to hate ALL Americans and feels the need to slink around apologizing for our wealth and abilitys!! He has insulted and demeaned more than once the highest revered office in our land, the office of the President of these United States.

Hi all,

OK, I believe we are getting way out of hand with regard to the "polite political PONDERINGS" point of view when we call our president names and throw around allegations for which we are not providing any substantiation.

I don't know anything about the man who wants to build the mosque, but I find what's being alleged hard to believe. It sounds to me like half-truths designed to inflame us all.

Especially since I don't see anything factual to back up the allegations being made.

I suspect that Josie is right in suggesting that building a mosque near ground zero is insensitive.

Beyond that, as I have received private complaints from other members of our group, I suggest that we are not being sensitive to all points of view, as well.

Let's go back to politely pondering, ladies, or else I will have to close this discussion.

Thank you!

All the women here who need or want proof need do is read the papers, not just one either, and watch the news, listen closely to those talking for and those against; then maybe you'll have the facts. I find it sad that people just gripe about what's said without bothering to read or listen to those who are paid to know. It's all out there, all one need do is pay attention and stop grumbling to Ann like cry babies trying to muffle those who take this situation in our country very seriously...I for one can show proof to anyone wanting to see it for anything stated here by email but know there is a lot of stuff to send. Or simply turn on the TV set it's all over the nightly news with pictures and everything to make it easier...

You needn't close this politically polite section again!!! I will just pass it by and talk on other sites with those having an intelligent understanding of the facts, and respecting that in others...

Wow! This is clearly a topic that is concerning to a lot of us, and I must say that I am all for a good political discussion now and then.

I love to see ideas being exchanged and people sharing their thoughts.

But at the same time, I don't want this forum to be a place where people feel they're not being heard or respected.

For those of you who are looking for quick access to some facts about the mosque, I offer the following link from Yahoo News:

US Mosque Fact Check

Here's more on the mosque from a reliable source, the Washington Post. I like their comments and wanted to share:


The national debate over the center near Ground Zero bears little resemblance to the reality on the ground in New York, where the local political establishment, from opponent Rep. Peter King (R) to supporter Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D), all agree that it would be better if the national, non-New York critics knew what was happening, both politically and spatially.

For more information, visit washingtonpost.com:
The Washington Post

If they do build the Mosque on the same sight as the Twin Towers, someone will low it up if they gdet bthe chance, then let the Muslims see how it feels. This is all so unnecessary and if Blumbewrg didn't have so much moneyt tied up in foreign oil he'd have stopped it, but he doesn't want to anger his Muslim buddies. FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!

The mosque won't be on the same site, Chatty, and it will be a community center that contains a mosque. It's at least two blocks away amongst the strip clubs and fast food joints. And I don't think advocating blowing it up is the way to get revenge - it wasn't the Muslims in New York that blew up the Twin Towers. Many of the Muslims in New York are born in the US; and the bigotry against them in New York and elsewhere in this country is disgusting. It's like saying they shouldn't be here in the US because they're not like us. The US used to be about welcoming anyone who wanted to settle here, especially those who were persecuted in their own country. It is really sad that bigotry is ruining our beautiful country.

Back in 1999, just a week after the killings in Columbine, the National Rifle Association held its already-scheduled annual meeting in Denver. Despite many protests and charges of insensitivity, the head of the NRA Charlton Heston politely but firmly reminded people that NRA members mourned the senseless deaths as well, they were American citizens too, and they had a right to meet.

I think his words must have been very painful back then but he was correct. Looking at the proposed community center/mosque in Manhattan, I don't see how I can demand that other people -- other Americans -- refrain from exercising their rights just because I might be a little uncomfortable. I don't get to approve others' speeches, political campaigns, or religious pronouncements.

The evil people who destroyed so much on 9/11 were not Americans. Until my fellow citizens give me proof that they are plotting against me or the government, they have the same rights I do. Those fanatics did enough damage on 9/11, but they will really have won if we turn on each other.

Besides, I don't live in New York anymore. Sure, we all have opinions, but I don't think I'd care too much for people from other states telling me what to do. New York has its own local and state government. They can deal with this themselves.

My dearie's 31 yr. old nephew and his 29 yr. old girlfriend visited Vancouver last week.

They both live and work in New York City. They've been there for past 15 yrs. They understand about the tragedy but feel that the hyped up rhetoric/fear is displaced grief and anger on Muslim-Americans, who for the majority are living peacefully in the U.S. and not responsible for deaths. They are part of you and I, in our communities.

Please remember this.
I wonder how on earth the American veterans who return to vacation/visit Vietnam can say in amazement that they were greeted well by the same people who maimed them, killed their relatives, friends, etc.

This isn't about being politically correct. I recently read somewhere several other communities across the U.S. are resisting the building of local mosques. What for? And it wasn't about land development/zoning. It amazes me when I do visit American small cities and towns how many churches there are. Amazing. Last week I was on Whidbey island (one of the San Juan islands, Washington state) where in Oak Harbour, we must have counted hmmmm 6 large churches within 4 blocks of one another.

As a hypothetical question, would this conservative (it appeared conservative to me) town welcome a mosque, Buddhist temple.. I hope that they would.

I can’t support any culture or religion that sees women as second class citizens.

There are big controversies going on in Germany right now because of a recently published book. It’s about the Islam immigrants living in Germany, and most other European countries.
It is simply fact that the highest crime rate is in the neighbourhoods they overtake. The murder rate for women is appalling. Murder by their own family members, who claim their sister, daughter or cousin has brought shame to the family is scandalous. It’s beside the point, but often these women are at no fault. 99% of these people have no interest at all to learn the language of the country they live in. But they very gladly use all the social benefits, including adopting 12 or so children from other family members to gete them into the country. The children are usually the poorest in the schools, which have slowly transformed into ghettos.

The mosques, that are popping up all over the continent appear like poisonous mushrooms.
You do know that women aren’t allowed to pray in the mosques? You do know that they preach, according to Islam, that all non Islamic people are bad, enemies and need to be overtaken.

I’m sure you know that they consider women dirty, child bearing machines, and lower than dogs. The aim of the Islamic people is to literally overtake the Christian or any non-Islamic population. Maybe not in our generation, but if this keeps up our great grandchildren will be fighting for their lives.

I don’t support any Islamic way of life. It has nothing to do with freedom of the people in a democratic country. Democracy enables equal rights for men and women. These equal rights defy all Islamic beliefs.

Muslim women in Scotland do pray in the Mosque.

Yes, you're right. Some allow it. The women have to sit in the back, usually crowded together on a balcony, with hardly any standing room. They aren't allowed below because of their inpurites.

But now you're talking personal feelings versus legal stuff and the two aren't the same. I hear you: I cannot deny people their legal rights, but that doesn't make me comfortable with a number of them as potential citizens.

I don't really care if they segregate themselves in services. After all, Orthodox Jews do, and some Christians as well. And while Christians certainly don't conduct honor killings, there is a significant strain of belief in the US that men are in charge. In fact, it's one of the reasons we as a country have such a low percentage of women in public office, and so many women still self-segregating into lower-paying jobs. Maybe you need to be in the Bible Belt, but I know plenty of women who would never tolerate a woman preacher, so it's a question of degree sometimes. And most Christians also believe that anyone who isn't a Christian is going to hell. They're not killing people about it, but they can be socially really unpleasant.

You do bring up a big point, though. Countries may have to make some hard decisions about immigration. I do know that my own people -- Irish Catholics -- were brutally discriminated against for many, many years. Right now we don't know whether Muslim groups will eventually assimilate or not.

I've been reading this thread and not sure if I should respond or not, but here I go...

Regarding men/women equal rights in religion, let's take the Catholic Church as an example. Is there a woman Pope? Are there women priests or bishops? As Ellemm pointed out, there are many religions in America that do not allow women to advance or lead.

Regarding the sins of one group and how it affects all others, let's take the Catholic Church as an example again. There were about 3,000 deaths in the 911 terrorist bombing. Guess how many young people were sexually abused by Catholic priests? More than 10 times that amount. That's right, the Los Angelese Diocese alone settled a lawsuit with 500.

Yes, the people in the terrorist bombing died, so that's a little different. But in my opinion, those abused have also suffered a type of death, and some did committ suicide and I would imagine many have gone on to become abusers themselves. This type of abuse affects the entire life of it's victimes.

Do you hear an outcry about a new Catholic church being built? Are all Catholics bad because of what the priests have done? Why is the Muslim issue any different?

I think it's different mostly because we don't understand the Muslim faith. I found Edelweiss's comments about their religion interesting and I want to learn more to see if it's really that bad. I think what was done on 911 had more of an impact because it was more violent, sudden, and visible in the media.

But in my mind, the Catholics and the Muslims are in very similar situations. Some bad Muslims did some terrible things and some bad Catholics did some terrible things. That does not mean that all Catholics and all Muslims are bad.

This is pretty repulsive, so if you are sensitive, don't click on the following link.

You know, it's easy to be tolerant if you don't see the way many of these Islamic people live. You should spend a day in Berlin. Germans are fleeing this beautiful city, because the crime rate has escalated to record highs. I had to step down off the curb and make room for groups of women, hidden under their burkas. Do you think they would budge an inch? They are fixated on their stone faced husbands, walking at least ten steps infront of them. If these people want to live that way, fine..then they should, but in their countries.

The Catholic Church with it’s bloody history as well as the sex scandals doesn’t make the Islamic preachings any less threatening. Actually I’m the wrong person to compare the two churches, especially since I don’t advocate any man made religious institution. But just last week a huge Moche was closed down by the German police because they discovered a new terrorist plot in the brewing. Our papers are full of this. And you do know that two of the terrorists responsible for 9/11 planned their attack in a German Mosche, which was closed. No European may attend the Islamic services. Why? Gee, at least anyone can go to a Catholic Mass.

Most interesting are the number of brave Turkish woman that have been coming out of their closets, so to speak. These are people of the Islamic religion that are warning non Islamic people of the hate campaigns going on. These women now live under other identities. Wasn’t the poor woman who’s nose was cut off on the cover of TIMES? Yes, there are good people in the Islamic religion as well. Especially those who warn others of the going ons.

I personally believe in the words of Dalai Lama

May I add:

The Orthodox Jewish women clearly have a lower status in their sect (meredith could respond more accurately here).

In conservative and Old Order Mennonite churches, the women clearly do not have any role in preaching. The men and women sit segregated in the church but at opposite ends of the room. i know this because I attended services with a close dear conservative Mennonite friend. (again Eagleheart might be able to speak better on this since her hubby's family is Mennonite based).

As for Edelweiss' comments: no I don't believe all Muslims treat their women poorly.There are different sects in Islam, just as there is different denominations/sects in Christianity.

I also think that there is mix-up of Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism which I don't purport to understand. The treatment of women by some of the visible minorities (I am sorry, but now I will use this term ...cause we are now talking about people who are a different skin colour which some people might equate as non-Christian, but highly visible within some North American and European communities.)

Did you know that there is a Sikh temple here in Metro Vancovuer that elected a university graduate woman, Sikh herself that is the leader for the temple? She is only in her early 20's. This made the front page of national news here! I'm using the term Sikh, because if we saw an elderly gentleman who was Sikh on the street in his clothing, could we know ourselves he was not Muslim????

I have applied to jobs in the Middle East where there are women's colleges and universities for Muslim women. So not all women are treated poorly.

We can not broadbrush all Muslims as treating their women as secondary. Especially when there are Islamic, university-educated feminists who speak out. Go to the Internet and you will find them.

Bride burning and widow burning practices are not confined to particular religion.

And they are a minority. It is not religion based. no matter how we look at it.

This forum will never expand to include women outside of the Judeo-Chistian sphere....because there is too much expressed fear and misunderstanding. I would welcome that Anne actually invites an educated Muslim women or 2 to participate in this forum regularily.

I'm disappointed. I'm going for a bike ride.

Edelweiss, I agree with your Dali Lama quote:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples;
No need for complicated philosophy.
Our own brain, our own heart is our temple;
The philosophy is kindness.

I also do not associate with any particular religion.

Edelweiss, we have a huge Muslim community here in Metro Vancovuer. It maybe larger than Berlins because ....it's Canada and its reputation overseas for potential immigrants.

Crime due Muslims in our area. No, it's drugs, theft, the usual crap..since we are close to the U.S. less than 40 kms. north of the U.S. So too much junk going on.

I wouldn't be blaming Muslims for this stuff that's for sure (not they are all crime-free, but no different from non-Muslims).

Whenever there is a shooting involving Canadian Asians, people start going little wierd.

It may well be also that German law is different from Canadian law...we have our own problems but when there is a national policy and law on equal treatment of people for hiring, housing,etc., it helps set the basic tone/framework for how to behave with one another as we encounter each other on the street, in shops, in the office... Not perfect, but it helps. Does German law provide this basic understanding?

I am critical here because for the German firm I worked for that is international and around for last 30 years, I checked its' annual report....none of the executives had a non-white face. Only 1 woman on the board of directors. In Vancouver newsletter, for all 10 issues they kept highlighting the German workers and managers. No non-white faces in the photos (we must have had a workforce of ....600 people of which at least 20% if the workforce were non-white. Several were university-educated in supervisory positions. Featured at all in their Canadian newsletters? Never.). Snobbish, sorry.

When there are hardworking locals in Nigeria, China, Tawain, Vietnam,...where this firm has its megamillion dollar projects and hire such hundreds of local people, they never photograph them. What type of corporate message is that by a firm?

Germany has come a long way but lots more to work on.

Muslims by the way, are not foreign. I sense this underlying tone, profoundly in many of our discussions. In North America, is to remember more and more will/are native born. Born in Canada and U.S. Or have become citizens legally.

The problem is that most Moslems that immigrate to Germany come from primitive villages. It’s these people that hold on to their medieval traditions. Turkish people coming from Istanbul are modern thinking, and can’t come to terms with the other sects either. So yes, you are all right, not all Moslems treat their women like low dogs. But most of the turkish immigrants come from these villages, so that is what we see here in Germany.

Odd that nobody commented on the domestic killings going on in these families. Did you know that the men go unpunished, or at the most become a symbolic punishment, ( of course in Turkey, not in Germany)?

Berlin has a lot of immigrants, and sadly enough, many of these immigrants are here because they are fleeing from poverty in their own countries. I guess you can compare it to the Mexican immigrants; Not only Turks, but many Russians, Polish people and Africans.

They need to pass a law in Germany that immigrants must learn the language within a certain time period. Do they have that law in Canada, Orchid? Not speaking the language alienates foreigners.

Orchid, as far as being critical because a German company only hired Germans, well frankly I wonder how many Chinese companies hire white people. I really don’t think it has anything to do with snobbery. It’s just a matter of statistics. I know and admire Canada for its open mindedness and especially being such a melting pot for all races and religions. Germany’s face has changed quite a bit. It’s not the blond, blue eyed, white complexion anymore. You see many mixed marriages here, and as far as I can tell, discrimination just doesn’t happen. You may be surprised to hear that a large movement of young Israelites are immigrating to Germany as well.

Germany as well as Austria, France, and Holand have always housed immigrants from Italy, Spain and Poland. They were welcomed, for they were hard working folks that never misused the hospitality. The Turks are different, though. They keep to themselves, don’t mingle or try to adapt to their new home country. Most can’t find jobs, because they don’t even finish their schooling, and end up on welfare. This causes bitterness,….in any country. And to make it more aggravating, they will build their mosque, and be secretive as to whatever they are preaching about. So it is an all around picture.

I hope I was able to explain my stance on this. I am the last person that discriminates. This isn’t about race, Orchid. It’s about facts and putting them together. I think it creates a scary picture.

I can’t help but think, Dancing Dolphin, if there were no organised religion in this world, how peaceful this place would be.

Edelweiss, I was talking about a German firm conducting business for 3 years on Canadian soil, in Vancouver suburbs. They were to operate within Canadian law and workplace culture.

600 employees at least 20% non-white, no photographs in any of our 10 newsletters featuring these employees. The Canadian managers got tired...even those who were white.

No there is no law that mandates a person must learn the one of the official languages within a deadline. Of course by logic, it just shuts a person out of jobs. So that's the lesson for the non-learner. Do we need more penalties than that?

I don't think it's even realistic, Edelweiss. People learn language at different pace and need to have time to learn which is tough if they are juggling full-time job and child care.

I have forgotten so much French myself yet, I had intensive courses at university. 2 years ago, I failed the written test and barely passed the verbal/comprehension test. It was a 3-hr. test. Thorough. A requirement for certain Canadian federal govn't jobs. The last time I took a French course was 20 yrs. ago.

Would foreign language testing stand any acceptance of mandatory non-English language test in the U.S.? I doubt, there would be alot of people shrieking over English unilingual rights.

The biggest joke of all, Edelweiss if you speak with English teachers and professors of English language and literature, they will tell you of Americans or Canadians born in their respective countries, who cannot speak or write whole paragraphs nor essays that are grammatically correct. All we have to do is to look at the plethora of personal blogs: some people are truly bewildering. They truly cannot write on 1 theme or 1 topic in 1 blog post with proper sentence structure and make sense to the reader. A typo or grammar error here and there on the rare occasion, is excusable for an informal blog. But when many blog posts are just incomprehensible in English, then one wonders about the person's literacy level.

As for "primitive" Muslims who might have less progressive attitudes: Is it all that bad in Germany? I doubt it. The 2nd and 3rd generation often changes that because they become assimilated /acculturated. Every wave of immigrants has shown this over and over.

As for domestic violence and abuse within families it's in every community, since this forum has its own members who have been victims. Enough said.

I would need to hear a bunch of Turkish-Germans, perhaps those 2nd generation who can articulate in English to hear their side and difficulties. Do alot of Germans think Turks tend to be xxxx and xxxx (substitute xxx for any bad/negative trait)? This confirms what my partner said, who was furious several years ago after he visited some relatives in Germany: he felt the attitude about the Turks from his relatives was rude/bad enough that he didn't want me to meet /be with some of these relatives.

The 2nd generation probably know German by now. Assimilation, as you know, is pretty powerful. Doesn't take much to lose a mother tongue. Only a few years, I'm a living example.

Please don't tell me to take Chinese language courses. I have no one to practice this on. I have no motivation to speak to strangers in Chinatown. All my friends speak English, including those of Chinese descent (which aren't many. Contrary to outsiders who think like-race, like-culture people cluster together like magnets)..they are like me. They have lost so much of the language because like me, we're part of Canadian culture...we hire whites, etc.

We ARE Canadian culture.

Orchid, since you obviously don’t believe the situation is as bad as I have described, then just look in the internet under Honor Killings in Islamic practice in Berlin.
Here is one link among hundreds:
LINK

I don’t see how you can compare Islamic Honor killings with domestic violence.

Islam’s global war against Christianity
LINK2

Check out Youtube…There you can hear Turkish Germans say how it is.

Orchid, I never said you should take Chinese courses. Why do you think that? You live in Canada. For some reason, I feel you are taking this discussion very personally. Sorry, if it is getting to you.

The good news is there is a growing movement, not only internationally but within Islamic feminist groups, revealing the problems and where the women hope to make progress. I have participated in demonstrations supporting these women.

Sorry if i'm taking this personally...but I see the misunderstanding parallel...lumping a bunch of people and thinking that alot are "bad".

Like I said earlier there are Muslim feminists in your country and worldwide. So we are on the same page. Some are impressively articulate --in English. Some do hold PhD's. That would be my measure of progress...if the women are allowed educational opportunities and matching job, decision-making roles in politics.

I should ask one friend ..she is Canadian born Chinese who recently married a Muslim East-Indian Canadian. They live in Toronto. She met the guy through speed dating. So obviously he is contemporary Muslim, not an adherrent to arranged marriages. i never got around to figuring how things are except she's a cyclist and he's an ardent car driver.

Does German law put the murderers to court trial for murder/homicide for the honour killings? That would be a strong message to everyone.

they do here in Canada, it's treated like any other murder/homicide under the Criminal Code of Canada.

As for honour killings, etc.....red herrings for other women who are killed/shot in domestic violence because ...there's no good reason. Do we run around say, let's kick out these non-Muslim people out of Canada? Sometimes, but we don't use 1 or 10 Caucasian murderers and proclaim that all Caucasians should get out of the country.

Here in British Columbia there is long expensive court hearing of a serial killer (white) who murdered and axed over 20 women then buried them on his pig farm..some were prostitutes, others aboriginal/native Indian women. It is a huge concern in women's groups because perhaps the police..didn't act on the investigation soon enough, that the lives of these women weren't valued enough because they were prostitutes, aboriginal.

I hope the Muslim feminists continue to speak out. No, excuse me..I mean German feminists. They aren't really just Muslim, they are German..if they are citizens of Germany. Correct?

Honest, I think the big cities for Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal have women's support shelters with multilingual staff to provide support immigrant women in dangerous situations. I know because of articles written in last few years, also because I did do volunteer work for an organization where some of our board directors were involved in such service support to non-English speaking clients.

For such support to be provided, there does need to be some funding, articulate/educated trained women and men to assist on a regular basis and also speak in those languages. It does involve the counselling and health care professionals.

Race and misunderstandiing, is something always lurking in the background. Even if one tries to ignore it. In a recent poll (getting back to the mosque proposed to NYC), more Americans were actually believing that President Obama was Muslim! So pathetic. Pathetic that at the time of election, there had to be a photocopy of his American citizenship card, copious explanation that he had a Kenyan father, etc. but he was raised in Hawaii.

Unbelievable most people (Americans) did not question citizenship of Bush, Clinton, Ford, etc. So pathetic.

Most likely "A" granddaughter will have to explain her citizenship to people to clarify..over and over when she becomes an adult and starts travelling beyond home borders.

As for the global war against Christianity...really? I guess Canada is pretty quiet. The bombs here aren't Muslim related..anyway bombs don't happen often. Church attendance is dropping off for other reasons, which people in BWS have discussed over the last few years. It wouldn't be surprising that suddenly an influx of immigrants some who may be Muslim, Hindu,etc....suddenly looks like alot.

But then I'm not Christian so maybe I don't feel the same threat or urgency to do something (I haven't a clue what I should do even if there were alot more Muslim-Canadians. Got any ideas that are palatable?)

It is a simple fact that the Islam claims they are the one and only religion and their aim is to spread out in the world and take over. Did you read the links I posted?

Once again I don't care if these people are green or purple. But just for your information I consider them white. This is NOT a racial issue, and I do resent that you keep insisting on that.

You asked; " I haven't a clue what I should do even if there were alot more Muslim-Canadians. Got any ideas that are palatable?"

The best thing is not let it get out of hand. Just like in your private or business life, when you are out of control, it's too late. So precaution is what I advise here. Of course don't throw the Muslims out of the country, (You are putting words in my mouth!) Take control as to how many Muslims should be allowed to immigrate. Services should be held openly, no secret meetings, should be allowed and Burkas should be banned on American soil. Do you believe the Islams would be as tolerant to the Western people immigrating to their countries?

Koran teachings do not fit into a democratic world. Yes, many other religions have preached the same, but have moved on. Besides, two wrongs do not make a right. Jeez no wonder men have control for so long. Women are making excuses and closing their eyes to reality. While Islamic women are desperately fighting the system, America is opening its portals, like many other countries, and allowing it to continue. That does not make sense to me.

We have little towns in Germany, where the mosques are larger than the church steeples. It's already out of control. And why? Because politicians are afraid to get labelled as racist,from people like you, who claim that “Race is always lurking in the background”.

I'm not politically savvy, nor do I have stats at hand, but I do have many Christiam cousins who are working in various missionary programs who will tell you that there is a systematic persecution and eradication of Christians by Muslim extremists everywhere they work. It's still a rather "silent" issue here, and I don't know why. But there are many countries, including India and parts of Africa where Christians ARE being persecuted and killed for their faith. Again, I don't have the energy to research links for you, but if you Google, they're there.

While we do want to check our hearts to make sure our attitudes aren't being racist-driven, there does come a point, IMHO, where we can take the blinders off and admit that there's something to be wary of here. I live in a multi-cultural neighbourhood, people of every race, colour, religion, cultural background. The only ones in this neighbourhood who smile and say hello to my face, but call me an "infidel" under their breath, are the Muslim boys two doors down. They don't even hide it. I find that kind of duplicity scary, because it's becoming more and more prevalent...have you read about the recent arrests here in Ottawa? Guys just like my neighbours have been sitting in their houses for months/years, being doctors, medical technicians, greeting their neighbours with smiles, one was even on Canadian Idol, but all that time, they've been accumulating materials and blueprints and schematics to blow up the Parliament Buildings here in Ottawa. THAT'S SCARY!!! How do you know who to trust when these very friendly Muslim men are also calling their neighbours "infidels" and planning to blow us all up??

I'm very much a live-and-let-live person, but as I say, there comes a time when one has to take the naive blinders off and call a spade a spade.

Another scary addendum to the Ottawa connection...the reason the police moved in when they did is that these men (Canadian citizens) were planning to send money and schematics that day to Afghanistan for building new-and-improved IED bombs to blow up our Canadian soldiers over there. How can that not be scary enough to make one question?

I've been lurking for awhile but do want to chime in because I think this is a very important topic.

The arguments I'm reading here are a lot like the ones used in the early 20th century referring to the Southern Europeans who were entering the US in droves.

There are demogogues who find ways to empower themselves in religious organizations just as they do in political ones, and transform religious institutions into political ones. We all have seen this for years in Christianity, and now we see it in Islam. "Religion" is a way of knowing, like science is a way of knowing. But taking over the world by force and using fear tactics to convert people (including children) isn't religion. It's something else, but I wouldn't call it religion. Distortions have long been made in interpreting the Bible: You can blame the followers of the holy book, but not the book itself.

The "West" actually owes a great deal to Islamic culture, though you won't learn that in the US school system. We can look at past history -- when Europeans were starving and bathing only about once a year, Islamic people had constructed public baths, and lighted streets, and beautiful temples, and clothes made of silk. The Islamic empire stretched into Asia and they were trading with China and India. The crusaders learned about these things when they invaded Muslim cities. Muslims later brought universities, hospitals, medicine, math, and even classical Greek philosophy and the check-writing system to Europe. The influence of Islamic thinking inspired the renaissance in Europe.

Europe has recently had a different approach to immigration than has the US and possibly Canada. It seems to me that there's some idea among European nations that there's something that's intrinsically "French" or "German" or "Italian" or "Dane" that's distinct from Kurdish or Turk or Arab, and that the latter can never actually aspire to become part of the nationality, unless they give up their ways. Maybe the very idea of "nation" (which is also an Islamic invention) needs to change?

I haven't waded through 480+ comments to this Canadian national news article about U.S. preacher wanting to burn the Koran. In today's paper.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...article1697677/

Really? One still needs it as a reference text even if one is not a Muslim/believer.

Edelweiss, I never claimed you wanted to throw out all Muslims. It was just a comment but already alot of folks just want them out of their home country. It's fear.

Eagle, sure arrest if there is hard evidence of terrorist plotting. But doesn't make all Muslims potential terrorists nor hostile to non-Muslims, like the people down the street.

I think the U.S.preacher's intentions only makes Muslims more defensive, inflames alot of people. More blockages to understanding.

Hmmm...let's see the Nazis burned books, Communist China at the height of its desire to "control its people" burned books and sacred texts in the 1960's. (You didn't know that?? That was the Cultural Revolution. Learning, books was seen as bourgeois. People were tortured. Temples destroyed turned into factories. Mob control, etc.)

When there's talk of burning copies of a book that by itself is quite harmless but interpreted in so many ways by different people (like the Bible), then there's something just wrong and pervasive.

Edit update: now it's 610+ comments on that globe and mail article.

I don't think there's an easy answer here. We in the West tend to view closed societies as a bad thing, do we not? When other countries are not welcoming to Christians or Westerners, for example, we view them as prejudiced and backward. But when we Westerners have the same discussions, we're just trying to preserve our way of life. Which is it?

I can imagine that if you live in Indonesia, a big influx of Christians with their different customs, different religious observances, and different expectations is not a happy change. Why are these women dressed in shorts? Why do they drink alcohol? Why do they want Sunday off for worship? And, worst of all, what if my child wants to marry one of them?

These are 'ordinary' problems. I cannot think of a single immigrant group to the US that spoke English with any facility on arrival. The one exception is the Irish, who were forced to learn it by their English overlords. (My grandparents spoke both English and Irish.) The first generation never does all that well, but they often don't even teach their native language to their children.

It's really hard for me to judge how much our present discomfort with Muslims represents something new or is just business as usual. The US, for example, has a long history of treating immigrants who were not Protestant, German, or English as second-class citizens. For example, the Irish and Italians were not even considered to be whites when they first started showing up to the US in large numbers. Catholics were *not* the kind of people thought to represent what the US was all about. (Remember when John Kennedy had to assure the American voters that the Pope would not take over if he was elected? Where I live, people still consider Catholics to be cult members.)

As to honor killings or forced marriages, anything that violates the laws where people live needs to be prosecuted. Yes, this may make some people very uncomfortable, but the immigrants themselves can decide if their new home is too 'different' for them to ever get comfortable. When in Rome, and all that.

Unfortunately there maybe some truth here in terms of national "self-identity" and everyone else is "other"...which might explain why the German international firm that I worked for (3 yrs.) seemed just fundamentally clueless in corporate self-expression of workforce diversity and how to give credit to employees who were not Germans. Some of these other employees had been with the firm over over a decade (Like I said the Canadian managers, were privately fed up.)

I worked in an international American-based firm for 3 yrs. It was the opposite: each country region exercised its own image for its workforce portrayal, etc. But there was a common standard in corporate culture, public relations, workforce diversity, etc. Sure there was U.S. influenced standards, but the local country managers had some flexibility to portray the corporate business in local terms.

Let's hope Edelweiss' "A" granddaughter will be viewed as German. But somehow, reality is that she will have to explain herself from time to time on her citizenship, her ancestry because people misunderstood her "origins".

Ok, Edelweiss you already told me the face of Germany is becoming more diverse. So that means all the German tourist literature from Germany, had better change to reflect this. Or maybe it tends to be just in the big cities?

Or maybe if we knew how diverse it was...it wouldn't be as interesting to visit for Canadians/Americans? Who might ho-hum at diversity selling point. (ie. What else is new? Big deal.)

The pastor who wants to burn the Koran, someone lives near the same town as the pastor. This is what this American says:

That church is in the town where I work. That idiot will do anything to get his name in the news. The more coverage they give him, the happier he is.

Our station will not send a crew to cover that nonsense. We have a crew on standby, if the fit hits the shan that night, but we are trying to avoid it.

In a small bit of irony, the city will not give him a burn permit, so the act WILL be illegal.

From this thread.. http://forums.bicycling.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/632104717/m/7221082696/p/1 People in this different forum, are alot of men. It is an American dominant forum just like BWS. Yup, guys somtimes joke in the midst of the storm. They talk about other stuff that has nothing to do with bikes.

Hello everyone,

I have just spent at least an hour reading through this entire thread. Loads of good ideas floated, but I agree with Ellemm that there's no easy answer here.

As for whomever suggested that I invite a Muslim women to join the discussion. Interesting idea, but unfortunately I don't personally know any, and thus I might not trust that someone who enters the discussion now saying she IS such a women - actually is who she says she is.

I don't think we as a group will be able to do much more than ponder the situation. But that's OK. We really don't have to do more than that, do we?

DJ's comment, which was boxed in Orchid's most recent post is certainly interesting. I refer to the concept that perhaps our very understanding of what makes up a nation has to change. And she is correct that the knights who fought in the crusades brought back with them many concepts and philosophies that inspired what became known as the European Renaissance.

It brings to my mind something I learned in college when studying this period. As I recall -- and I know the concept is right even if the country is wrong -- the Polish knights did not participate in the Crusades because their beverage of choice was beer -- not wine -- and they had no process to keep it from going bad as they traveled to the Holy Lands! (Pasturization hadn't been invented yet!)

I'm all for living in a country that is a melting pot -- and I recognize that means we have to take the good with the bad... Regardless, doing so keeps us from becoming inbred -- and we can all learn from the press of new ideas.

Orchid, to answer your question from earlier in this thread:
In Orthodox Judaism, women have virtually no role in the synagogue. Synagogue is a male domain. Women sit separately (in a balcony if available, or at the side on the main floor behind a curtain divider.) Womens synagogue prayer is considered unimportant, and women are not considered reliable witnesses in a Jewish court of law.

However, women are equal within the home, and are expected to be educated. Jobs are OK as long as they don't interfere with child care.

__________________________________________________________

As Western religions moved from Judaism to Christianity to Islam, in my opinion they have also gotten increasingly patriarchal. The more patriarchal, the more militaristic and also the more misogynist.

I think Jewish Orthodox women are treated as 2nd class. Christian Fundamentalist women are lower than that. Muslim women are even worse off.

In the more liberal branches of these religions, women are treated as equals. Also, there's some correlation (but not absolute) between education and equality.

I'm scared of fundamentalist Christians. I'm even more scared of fundamentalist Muslims. However, "some of my best friends are" members of the less fundamentalist branches of any and all religions.

It's not about race. It IS about not supporting any religion which treats women like dirt.

Exactly Meredith. that is what I've been saying all along. And this should not be accepted in a democracy.

I hear what you both are saying, but where does separate and different become intolerable? Most people in the US are pretty comfortable with the idea of Christianity, even though we all know that practices differ widely and plenty of people do not permit women priests or ministers or even lay readers. Some Christian churches have removed women from Sunday schools based on the 'suffer not a woman to teach' idea.

Is it that these people seem to be a minority, so are tolerable? Is it that we're taught to pretty much mind our own business in terms of religion as long as people are not interferred with in public? I don't have the answer to this, but if we're talking about women's equality here, then we don't seem to have much trouble with *some* subjugation of women as long as there isn't too much. So it's really just a question of degree, or are all religions bad in this area?

And, you know, it's not just women. I know people who have had to abandon their families because they are gay. There's no way they will still be accepted, so have moved away for good. Or marrying outside the religious/ethnic group. Or getting a college degree. The list goes on and on. You know, there are people in the US who don't think women should have the right to vote; where did that idea come from, in a country that's overwhelmingly Christian?

Anyway, I heard something interesting on the radio today. It's about the first Muslim university in the US. Very small, very democratic. The man who started it said he has traveled widely and noticed that many practices in Muslim countries are cultural, not religious, and he's interested in people being able to study Islam without all the baggage.

The Supreme Governor of the Church of England is Queen Elizabeth. Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth II preceded her. As far as I know, the UK is a democratic country.

Albeit the Catholic Church does not ordain women (not because She does not want to but, because She simply cannot) they have never been, and still are not, subordinate to men.

http://www.wf-f.org/05-1-FeministMyth.html

thx for your opinion meredith.

Edelweiss: And if there are some mosques that are bigger than church steeples, is that a dangerous, offensive thing to see where you are?

Not sure if you visited the suburbs of Vancouver, but we have some huge mosques and 1-2 huge Buddhist temples. No one has become "scared" where we are. Actually some are a tourist attraction (just like big famous churches in Europe where tons of tourists visit and take photos).

Unfortunately I think many people DO associate Muslim and Hinduism with non-whites if they are unfamiliar with Islam, don't know the history of Turkey, Middle East, Indonesia and Malayasia, etc. (latter 2 countries have high number of Muslim believers).

I don't appreciate the comment "people like you who claim, etc." I'm over 10,000 kms. away from you and you have never met me, never walked in my shoes and never lived my life. I haven't told all my stories of incidents that are unpleasant here in this forum, incidents that occur still as an adult. (which is why I think Eagle who was taunted as "infidel" should just ignore it. Those boys were razzing her and trying to get a rise out of her. I get that similar crap, several times per year.)

I already gave same real-life examples of ex-pat Germans, their style in the workplace, whom I worked with for 3 years...daily. I also share a life with my partner has a deeper feel of German culture and nuances of its language, still has direct contact with relatives in Germany and visited Germany over 8 different trips in his lifetime after he immigrated to Canada in the early 1950's.

I wish the shadow of race would go away but it does reappear suddenly when never expects it. And it isn't overt violence. It's as simple as:

During the Olympics, I was standing with Jack, my partner at night waiting for fireworks to begin. 5 feet away a bunch of people in their 20's, not even children, were talking away. one guy was venting about his job, then about all the Chinese and too many Chinese in Richmond where I guess he works. No he wasn't Asian at all. I didn't say anything because part of me ..was tired and wondered if it would be worth it. But I did turn around to look at them long. Meanwhile Jack simply stood there, facing them and stared them long.

The others were uncomfortable,..because they knew how broadbrushing and wrong his comments were.

Richmond is a suburb of Vanouver. It has alot of Canadians of Asian descent.

As for the claim there is no discrimination in Germany from what you can see. Not from your perspective because you would only notice overt violence, shouting. As I said earlier, the real integration of people occurs in the power structure of politics and how people accepted further up the chain in decision-making in management of a company, non-profit organizations, government. It is about sharing power and decision-making not at the lower level of any organizational structure but in leadership roles, where the talent and skills of people are developed, recognized and used.



Maybe the tourist images...should include mosques and temples in Germany? They do include here for Richmond and Surrey in Canada. The tourist literature includes photos of 1 huge Richmond Buddhist temple. It was probably built there, not because of the local population but because there was vacant lot available and land zoning to allow it. People go there to pray. I haven't gotten around to walking around inside.

I'm not sure where the large churches are in Richmond, they exist. I don't visit Richmond often, once a month or less. I just don't notice them...because churches in North America are like wallpaper after awhile: we take them for granted in our landscape, we don't really notice them after awhile.

I can only imagine how threatening the perceived invasion of Islam, etc. that is coinciding with legal immigrants settling in areas ..especially if the Christian church attendance has been declining over the past few decades (it has been in Canada).

I'm not convinced about fundmentalism taking real hold in North America, given our laws to assist in preventing gender abuse, etc. Large numbers of 2nd and 3rd generations tend to move further and further away from their fundamentalist relatives / ancestors over decades. In fact the new "God" is consumerism.

Powerful forces of assimilation for the majority, not the small fundamental minority believers.

This is ridiculous. End of conversation.

She is one of many Muslims, doing difficult work. Educating within her community and outside the Muslim world.

http://www.irshadmanji.com/ A contemporary Muslim feminist who is gay. She is university-educated Canadian and I last heard she moved down to New York City to teach at one of the universities or colleges.

She wrote a fiery book a few years ago. She worked for one of the major national Canadian tv broadcasters...ages ago. (CBC) At the time, I did watch some of her tv stuff. Vibrant, erudite speaker. She would be very inspiring to young Muslim feminists andn older.

But on the surface, she is less "visible" because she does not wear a headscarf or burqua. So we would have no clue she was Muslim on the street. Therefore she looks less threatening.

Edit: I just noticed in her bio....she was raised as a child in Vancouver.

Sorry, that was not my experience growing up Catholic at all. We all knew that the priests, monsignors, and bishops were in charge of everything. Women may have had a helping/enforcing role but that was it. But I'll leave it at that; I'm just stating my experience. I suspect other churches operate much the same.

Ellemm, I do not understand what you mean by "that was not my experience growing up Catholic at all." I would be most surprised if you were referring to the link I provided. Otherwise, I would presume that you are referring to individual Parochial administration, which is not representative of the institution as a whole. My grandmother and Mom were involved in liturgical preparations after Vatican II in NYC. Cloistered religious communities for women also allowed involvement of women within liturgical preparations pre-Vatican II. But, the praxi remains the same pre and post. Women cannot be ordained.

All the same, as you've said your experience is different from mine and I accept that.

I would hazard a guess that this is true for just about ever woman in this forum. Nobody has the monopoly on discrimination and hurtful encounters. Hostility, prejudice and meanness are flung for many different reasons,...you encountered it and you might determine that it‘s racism; I've encountered it throughout my life, been terribly scarred by it and have never really had any clear idea of the “why” of it. I’ve always been on the outside looking in everywhere I’ve been. Perhaps it’s my mental illness? I don’t know. All I know is that it hurts. And please don’t tell me that one person’s hurt is any more valid than another simply because the hostility or prejudice stems from one aspect of hatred than another…hatred is hatred, no matter what the reason for it. It all diminishes.



I can and do ignore the taunting. These aren’t little boys, they’re 18-20 year olds. What I can’t ignore is the inflammatory intent behind the taunt…and it wouldn’t matter who was flinging hatred at me, it would and does still make me wary because I’ve seen what hatred is capable of, and I simply don’t want to be targeted by anyone anywhere for any reason.

No one likes being hassled. The young men are still razzing you.
I long ago, figured these incidents will occur here and there for the rest of my life.

I am highly amused when bloggers on the internet deliberately love to write inflammatory stuff just to get more people reading their sights. They write in a language to attract anger, to provoke, etc.

I'm the opposite...probably because I knew since I was kid, that my simple visible existence in the sightlight of some people, angers/provokes some people. And I haven't even opened my mouth or done anything towards them.

This is why I don't wear fashion to draw much attention to myself, I don't need dreadlock/super unusual hair fashion, multiple tattoos to pronounce a message/identity...just being myself...draws sufficient attention and at times anger to some people on the street.

If nothing else, "curiosity". As it did in Germany, when a bunch of young children in small Black Forest German town just stared at me as we stopped to look at maps. They didn't care to look at Jack. Jack was 3 ft. away. But they are only children, curious about anything "different".

It is scary to defend oneself solo when certain situations arise. 2 yrs. ago I was riding to home a local bus out in the suburbs. The bus driver was East Indian with a turban. 3 Caucasian people boarded bus ..and they refused to pay the fare..one of them made a derogatory remark to the driver. Then they sat at front of bus across the aisle where I was sitting. I did comment that the bus driver had the right to ask that they pay fare. Of course, that set off a guy who threatened me he would get at me... So the dumb conversation went on amongst them about too many Chinks, Pakis... I kept my mouth shut and figured it just wasn't worth it. We still had another half an hr. to reach the bus station and my safety was priority.

Now, I was wearing a sleek cycling jacket, lycra shorts, had my bike helmet, panniers, etc. (I was going to pick up my bike at another transit station to ride homeward since commute was so long.) I looked very Canadian / western / contemporary to them...which I am in spirit also 100%. Had I looked like a meek, low-income fresh-off-the-boat immigrant, I just wonder what more could they have done/said to me.

Or if I was weak, old and frail Asian woman. They probably would have thought I was too dumb to understand English.

Maybe they might have shocked to know I was old enough to be their mother.

Lola, again I don't have stats or links, all I have is my own experience as a woman in the Catholic Church. What frustrated me more than anything is that when one bishop/priest was in charge, I was considered to be valuable, capable and welcome to participate at just about every level of the liturgy if I chose to. Then when a new priest stepped in, I wasn't, SIMPLY and only because I was a woman. Wonderfully capable and profoundly spiritual women who had been very active and vital in the church were suddenly not even allowed on the altar. Then when another new priest stepped in, new boundaries and new attitudes...eventually, being considered valid and purposeful within the church became an exercise in futility, a constant hitting of one's head against immovable brick walls. I had to leave...as my quote says, when you don't like a thing, change it. If you can't change it, change the way you think about it. I tried, couldn't, changed my thinking about it and got out.

Perhaps that's not the intent of the heirarchy, but that's the reality of many women in the church. I'm not the only one, nor will I be the last, to leave. Currently I can't bring myself to go to any church right now, because I see such widespread mistreatment of women in the name of God, and I can't buy into it or allow myself to be wounded by it anymore.

I understand how you must feel. However, your experience which bears similarities to that of Ellemm's, does not reflect collective practice. In the circumstances similar to your old Parish, the usual recourse is at Diocesan level, or within individual Parish Councils, in order that the Priest could be advised that preferential treatment was/is wrong.

I think I already mentioned that I'm not concerned that women cannot be ordained. And I'm sorry, I found the writer's tone in that link to be really unnecessarily unpleasant. There's no doubt that women are an important part of any church, so that's no surprise, but that doesn't make them equals.

Put simply, women don't make any of the 'rules' in the Catholic church (and they don't in nearly any church). No matter how fervent or sacrificial or even argumentative certain women are, their efforts have little to no effect on how Catholics are taught to practice their own beliefs. I mean, how can they be? Christ's ordained representatives on earth are men, not women.

As Eagle Heart said, women can be and are allowed to participate in many liturgical practices, but that's the point: they're allowed, not entitled. (Even some Protestant churches have basically fired women from Sunday School as the minister decided to take a harder stand on women's participation.) I cannot agree that local practices are not reflective of the wider organization; that's, after all, where most Catholics live their daily lives. What's allowed is what's believed in. I'd say that about any group, secular or religious.

I'm not arguing that this is wrong or should be changed, it just is. I'm also not, by the way, trying to imply that the Church's practices are equivalent to refusing education to women or locking them in their homes. I just think that women may be socially equal, but they're nowhere close in terms of religion. Sometimes the separations are more subtle, but they're no less powerful.

Edelweiss, a proposed legislation for Ontario on shariah law was struck down a few years ago. In the end, it was the Canadian Muslim feminists and its supporters who launched strong opposition. How critical it is to educate women and give them all (educated and less educated) equal space to debate, criticize and to be heard.

I don't know if the speaker in that videoclip was quoting German judges out of context on merely quoting shariah law. But then, as soon as I hear people, "decyring dismantling of our heritage"...

Hmmmm. Really?
Many assimilated 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation who has lost their mother tongue fluency, left their church / synagogue/ temple know it doesn't take another religious/ethnic group that merely exists peacefully next door or down the street to cause them to dilute 'their heritage'. It's personal choice and preference by an individual of what actions the person takes. As some of the women here in BWS already have expressed their personal choices with respect to their religion/church membership.

I was a supervised and trained 2 German young women in their late 20's 2 yrs. ago. One of them who was 100% German by blood, said she absolutely had no interest in the dirndl, lederhosen and all that old German stuff. She was born and raised in Germany. Not a Christan believer.

The other was actually of Croatian descent. She immigrated to Germany with family when she was a child.

Both intelligent, hard-working folks.

I can't believe majority desire to allow polygamy in Western countries or sanctioned. For certain, alot of Asian folks aren't interested because of the long convoluted, often dysfunctional family relationships over in multiple wives, concubines for the rich in China, Japan up to the early 20th century. I have 2 close friends who's grandfathers each had 2 wives. They sure didn't like the concept of 2 grandmothers for 1 grampy. And they didn't like talking about it. The people are dead by now...last 20 yrs. Of course those marriages "existed", but were phased out.

Actually we have a small polygamous Mormon sect in Bountiful, British Columbia (yes, that's the name of the municipality) in rural region. The court casse is being tried in the B.C.courts right now. Some of his wives have left the sect/marriage.

Why do people worry about something so rare, esoteric as polygamy anyway? Alot of immigrants come from some cultures that did have it but no longer. These same people know how dysfunctional family relationships result from polygamy anyway. Most people don't want it. Jealousy, fighting and other energy-consuming stuff. Just read the historic biographies....

I never saw any mosques when we were in Black Forest region and we were in the rural areas cycling through for several days. But then I didn't go out of my way to search for them. Probably the land is so expensive/valued there(since it is a wine growing region) and in the hands of many generations that prevents it to be sold off to anyone else. Also zoning requirements to preserve green space probably, etc.

Saw lots of churches ..just like the tourist literature. Not sure what the membership of the churches in the rural areas would be....

But in the end, in Europe and as well as Asian countries, the definition of national identity more defined by blood, than adopted citizenship by immigrants, might rule in the end.

Or maybe use of too much English worldwide (because the Internet is dominated by English language and international business, and scientific language is English) in the next 100 yrs., will cause erosion of other languages, thereby culture. (since language and culture are inextricably linked together)

I have to leave here..to do some work.

Considering that there are religious communities for women, as there are for men, supports the praxi of equality. Communities of religious women make their rules for their respective congregation which are approved by the Vatican, for so long as those rules exist in communion with the theological doctrine of the Catholic Church. Vatican exercises the same with religious communities for men. The Benedictine and Franciscan Orders have their female counterparts established by St Scholastica (sister of St Benedict) in the 1st Century and St Clare, founder of the Poor Clares in the 13th Century. What applied then is still the norm. Whilst Jesus ordained men for the priesthood which makes them in persona Christi in celebration of the Sacraments, women are not excluded from the missions of the Church because their work is in the spirit of Christ. It does not make women subordinate to men but equal to men. Otherwise, the theological implication is that women cannot redeem herself for God's graces by virtue of gender.



Who said they are not entitled? The fact that EH was not able to participate under another Priest is non sequitur. Should we ignore the former experience on the basis of another? Does'nt it make more sense to attribute that to an obvious mistake by the Priest concerned rather than the Church?

I think it makes more sense for me not to make any more comments on this particular part of the topic.

This whole discussion is a "deja vu" experience for me...been there, done that, heard it all, it still doesn't address, attempt to fix, understand or "get" the personal experience that too many women in many churches, synagogues and mosques experience within the confines (more like tidy little boxes in the back closet) of institutionalized religion. The few who have found a welcoming niche and soul-nourishing purpose within those patriarchal walls are fortunate, and hopefully are working from within to make a difference. For me, it continues to be a tiresome and futile waste of my energy to be a part of something that has been and continues to be toxic to my spirit and spirituality. Whether it be (unrealistically, IMO) blamed on one priest or one local parish, or even to faults and flaws within my own self (I do accept some responsibility), ultimately, at this time, makes no difference to me...it is what it is, an inhospitable environment...the sad thing, which is not being heard here, is that it is more prevalent than the church can admit...all you have to do is see the empty pews and churches being torn down to know that I'm not the only one staying home on Sunday.

This is profile for: Irshad Manji, the Muslim Canadian feminist who is speaking out for Islamic reform. She teaches at New York University in NYC:

As a scholar beyond NYU, Irshad is Senior Fellow with the European Foundation for Democracy. She has served as a Visiting Fellow at Yale University and Journalist-in-Residence at the University of Toronto, where she wrote The Trouble with Islam Today.

For her pioneering work to open up Muslim societies, Irshad receives death threats and distinctions.


* The World Economic Forum has selected her as a Young Global Leader;

* Ms. magazine has named her a Feminist for the 21st Century; and

* The Jakarta Post in Indonesia -- the world's largest Muslim country -- identifies Irshad as one of three Muslim women creating positive change in Islam today.

Born in 1968, Irshad is a refugee from Idi Amin's Uganda. In 1972, she and her family fled to Vancouver, where Irshad grew up attending public schools as well as the Islamic madressa. In 1990, she graduated with honors from the University of British Columbia, winning the Governor-General's medal for top academic achievement in the humanities.

Gee, I recognize this Vancouver parking lot where in 2007, she is arguing with this fundamentalist woman. Right outside the Canadian Broadcasting Corp Vancouver branch office. Our Canadian national tv and radio broadcasting network.

http://www.youtube.com/user/IrshadManjiTV#

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

Am I afraid that there are fundamentalist Muslim in Metro Vancouver? No. Too many others would be oppposing it. Heck of alot of fully assimilated folks in Metro Vancouver.

I have avoided discussing the initial question.The Mosque being built in NY.It is not in my country.

But the discussion about women in the Church.I can add my experience.for any new members of readers of the board I live in Scotland
Women ministers do exist in The Church of Scotland.The head of the Church is by nomination for the period of one year.And we have had a woman as "The Moderator of The General Assembly of The Church of Scotland" There is no bar on gender here.
At the annual Assembly matters and rules of the whole church in Scotland are discussed and reported widely.
as for failing church attendance.This is so here also.

In addition
I atttended a Mosque two weeks ago..as an open doors policy locally.I saw a place of education as well as worship.I was met by women who embraced me..Educated women and delightful children.Many nations of Muslim faith.Within that mosque there is a defined nationality .Those nations seemed to keep to themselves whilst engaging in the ritual.

I broke their fast sitting on the floor...watched them called to prayer..This took place upstairs in a purpose built building.This weekend as part of Open Doors Scotland the building is open.
many other Scottish people had been invited.we were a varied mix..people who knew and had befriended those who attended the Mosque had been invited.By ticket only.

The forthcoming Papal visit to UK is imminent.It can only be attended by tickets allocated to Catholic parishes.However I respect the honour of having this visit.My recollection of Pope John kissing the soil of Scotland when he arrived many years ago in Glasgow is a humbling memory.I shall watch coverage of this visit and ask friends who are going to Glasgow about this visit.
I hope I have been polite in my post...I have pondered about posting but did want to add my voice.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. The text of the quotation is usually presented roughly as follows:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

That has been addressed. Unfortunately, it is either misunderstood or perhaps not to listened to. Likewise, I have heard all sort of contrasting views before, Eagle. And the submission on half-filled Churches is something oft encountered. And, one can only present that half-filled pews are the result of apathy, cynicism and self-segregation, much of which is continuously justified by individual sorry experiences and/or conflicts or, by reference to others' misdeeds, in whatsoever form those misdeeds have been committed.

Addressing that against the topic of the original post and the discussions here on Islam. The zeal held by those who propose to erect a Mosque close to Ground Zero, despite the imprudential decision to erect it and opposition to it, is not really surprising because in contrast, despite criticisms hurled against Islam and the misdeeds of a minority, the Islamic community remains bold and their Mosques are well attended. Simply because Muslims do not skew to personal likings and singular embers.

Eventually, this singular ember will find a welcoming hearth.

"...singular embers and welcoming hearths"...well, got to commend you ladies on your poetic phrasing. :-)

Thanks Edelweiss. There's such a sadness in my heart in any discussion about church these days. Not just my own, but for all of the marginalized people who struggle to find a community that can embrace all.

MA, regarding your earlier post. A few years ago after both hubby and I decided to leave the Catholic Church, we went on an extensive search for a new community church. We eventually found it, a wonderful, warm congregation that embraces people from every imaginable background and walk of life. The minister was a guy that I used to babysit when he was a little boy. He's married, with three children, and his sermons were well listened to because they were humourous and relevant, connecting the scriptures to everyday family life. On our first Sunday there, it took us over an hour to get out because everyone stopped to talk with us. It was wonderful.

He has since transferred elsewhere, and the church is now pastored by a wife/husband team, both of whom are fully ordained ministers.

What I really loved about this church was its inclusiveness. Women were an integral part of the community and were not only invited, but EXPECTED to fully participate in every aspect of the life and service within the church...including ministry, pastoral care, giving sermons, etc, etc. It was the first church I'd ever been in where women weren't automatically relegated to the kitchen to help serve the coffee, LOL!

This church was/is still packed every Sunday. Women run scripture schools during the week, pastoral care training sessions, after-Church seminars for everyone...the congregation also does fun things together throughout the week. This little church is vibrant, filled with music, families, children. Nobody was excluded...the altar is wheelchair accessible, gay couples are welcome with open arms, women, or sometimes husband-wife teams give sermons, and ordained women ministers often precide. To me, this is the epitome of church.

All to say that, IMO, the church loses too much when it sublimates and alienates any "singular ember" of its community for any reason, in particular when it bars, or restricts the extent to which women and married ministers can or cannot participate.

I've read this entire post and here's where I stand.
We're screwed! RADICAL Islam is going to eventually seep into as many countries as possible, and they're not being quiet about it (watch the rallies where they speak about nuking the very countries in which they live).
Wake up people. Jewish, Christian, anything that isn't Islamic...will one day, eventually have to face the fight of the Muslim...I suspect the peaceful Muslim will have to decide which side they are on eventually...sort of like when the Germans were faced with Nazism...they had to go along or be killed.
I have always been an advocate against prejudice. I do not judge anyone on the color of their skin so before anyone says I am, I'll tell you right now that you are wrong.
I will never stand for a culture/religion that wants to strip away what MY country was founded on and FORCE themselves, their laws and their degredation of women and human beings into their way only of thinking.
You tell the Mother of the man who was snatched off the street of an European country (he was Jewish) and tortured by a Muslim group while the parents heard him on the phone screaming...they were saying because they are not Muslim that they are being punished. You tell that Mother that this religion is peaceful and has only the want to practice their relgion in other countries. Are you kidding me? Their son's screaming wasn't paranoia...it was torture!!! The bombing of the bus in London wasn't meant to spread peace...it was meant to send a message and there are people who are willing to do this in the name of Islam penetrating themselves into every corner of this planet.
I know exactly what Edelweiss is saying and I agree with her 100% and one day our grandchildren will look up and have to deal with this on the streets of this country and not in a good way. Hell, it may even be in my lifetime.
This doesn't have anything to do with prejudices...it has to do with a group of terrorists who hide behind a book whose God tells them to overrun the infidel...and people WE are the infidel.
Our political politeness is going to get many, many, many people murdered and one day this country overrun. It happened in Europe...it will happen again.
If you have not listened to the nuts speaking at these rallies then you're being foolish.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I do not intend to respond back to this forum or get involved in any heated arguments...this is how I feel and I am speaking my mind. I defend Edelweiss and stand with her.

And, I sincerely hope so, Eagle. Remember "The Silent Sermon" which someone posted here before?

---------

And if the preacher of his small Florida church (who is enjoying this worldwide attention according to the locals who dislike this crazed pastor. Read my earlier post near beginning where a firefighter/ems worker works in the same town as this pastor in Florida. From a cycling forum where I participate.) does burn the Koran, that single image will be filmed to the Muslim countries..and everyone over there will think many parts of U.S. and Canada are burning with rage too against Muslims and the Koran.

Talk about news media distortions.
which will only harden people on different sides of this debate.

Political correctness...? I pointed earlier how Canadian Muslim feminists struck down attempt to propose shariah law in Ontario. Of course, they easily had other suppporters.

This fall my state will vote on a question regarding using Sharia law. At first I thought the sponsor must be insane -- we have no lack of religious kooks in this state -- but now I wonder. Yes, it's good that women in Canada helped keep shariah law from being accepted in Ontario, but why did people want to do it in the first place? I mean, I understand why some people wanted it instituted, but this is one of the reasons people are so suspicious of new groups who seem ike they want to establish an enclave in another country.

I can only imagine the administrative nightmares regarding domestic violence, divorce, education, custody, etc., when people want to set up their own laws in some areas but expect to receive the benefits of the new country in others.

And I think that pastor who wants to burn the books is a nut. There's no good purpose to this and it will only harden people against each other. Even if you don't care for someone's religion or lifestyle, making such a offensive gesture does no good.

Maybe Ellen, alot of non-Muslim feminists don't understand sharia law.

From a national Canadian newspaper, National Post, which does tend to lean to right-wing. But I think there's truth to what the writer say:



This is why Muslim feminists must continue to be allowed to speak out worldwide. Particularily the educated ones who are smart enough not to be brainwashed and become another suicide bomber with explosives on their body....

I might read abit more abut Irshad's take on this..later -- the Canadian Muslim feminist. Yea, I admit I'm partial to someone from Vancouver/Toronto. Since I've lived /live in these cities for last 30 years of my life with huge diverse populations. A person gets the "tenor" of other citizen who grew up in the same place.

It doesn't surprise me she's a cross-cultural, interfaith bridge..alot of 2nd, 3rd generations end up..sometimes not by choice. But by necessity, in order to have decent family relationships across a mix of beliefs.

Cross-cultural bridge is bit of curse when one is young because a kid has to defend themselves, explain themselves over and over, choose which side to take, think too much, cry too much, but an enormous gift later as an adult if one is not afraid.

Cultural relativity is arbitrary pick-and-choose filtered through the lens of political correctness.

If one actually believes that we shouldn't interfere within someone else's cultural sensitivities, then why did those very same people oppose apartheid? Either you let a culture/religion/political entity decide its own fate, or you don't.

Within my lifetime, I can cite a very loooooong list of political inconsistencies within the PC mantra.

Either you oppose the subjeugation and brutalization of women, or you don't. Abuse doesn't become more palatable because we wish to curry political favor with the abusers.

Cartoon, but not related to women.

http://blog.cartoonbank.com/daily-cartoons-2/cartoon-of-the-day-august-1-2010/

The world we live in has two sides to it. The world of division, factions, fear and suspicion is a side of the world that an animal would be familiar with. It's where the one with the most power, strength and cunning wins, and the weaker have to fortify themselves and figure out ways to survive against attacks. A great deal (but not all) of international political history operates out of this animal side of our nature.
The other aspect of the world is spiritual. This is where Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha wanted us to live. It's the focus of religion: religion teaches us to dominate the animal side of our nature. It's where love, compassion, reason, patience and all the spiritual qualities come from.
If people are operating out of the animal side, they are not operating out of religion, no matter what they say. You can't let people's language blind you to the reality of what they're doing, whether it's burning a Qu'ran in the name of Jesus, or torturing people in the name of Mohammad. It isn't religion, it's politics.
Muslims who support and believe in the 8th century, man-made shariah law are in the minority. It is not Islam, it's politics and always has been. And it's very ignorant politics. Islam has been beset by divisions since Mohammad passed away -- Sunni and Shiah -- and has been plagued by politics since then. But Christianity has also been plagued by politics. Every Christian should study its history. Still, you can go to the Bible and read the words of Jesus and ignore church politics. So you know the difference. A Muslim can do the same with the Qu'ran.
I'd encourage everyone to get to know a few Muslims and have this conversation.

Perhaps, it would help to understand Sharia law as it presents in the West rather than in Muslim countries.

In the UK, the Church of England, Roman Catholics and the Jews have their own courts and tribunals which deals with internal matters of faith. For purposes of social cohesion, Sharia law is also recognised. Sharia courts have powers to rule on Muslim cases over here and, like their counterparts, they are arbitration tribunals under the British arbitration laws and their decisions are enforceable by the courts. The cases before Sharia courts are civil, not criminal because extreme forms of penalties under Sharia are not enforceable in non-Muslim countries. Recourse to remedies under Sharia is not compulsory but, it provides alternative dispute resolutions for Muslim women. There has been (and there is) opposition by Muslims and non-Muslims to Sharia law over here but, at the same time, there are also those who sanction it.

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

Thx so much for this precis Lola for the legal framework in England. I don't know about ecclestical law in Canada as it relates to Canadian civil law, but I am aware....how little recent legal information there is specific to Canada in this area.

If recourse to remedies is not compulsory for Muslim women under sharia law in England and if it is considered a mechanism for alternative dispute resolution in civil matters for Muslim women, then one wonders if the Muslim women themselves when they put into such situations, fully understand the advantages and disadvantages of choosing ADR (alternative dispute resolution) under sharia law route.

Is the tribunal membership for this route, consist of only those from the Muslim community who sit to arbitrate/decide on the case (of course with U.K. licensed lawyers presumably)?

I just wonder if it helps the women and children for a more peaceful resolution in areas of.....? Family law matters...divorce, child custody?

The only thing about our legal system, is the adversarial nature of litigating a case, where parties (plaintiff and defendant) are pitted against each other. Very hard on divorcing parents and children.

Though many Western countries have a legal system which allows and provides ADR in civil law including family law (without the need for sharia law), where a less conflict-ridden resolution and hopefully less costly decision can be made between the 2 parties.

I would presume that sharia law in England doesn't cover physical abuse, murder, rape, etc. all which would be criminal law. It is for Canada also.

Still I'm a doubting orchid, because already our own respective legal system is complex, full of legalese jargon, costly (for anyone hiring a lawyer for anything) and I think the layperson has a tough time understanding the advantages / disadvantages or forecasting best end result to determine the best route to take, when they are already under stressful, life-altering times in life that require legal intervention/direction.

I feel this strongly since I worked for our province's legal aid agency and have heard many situations of lay people just not knowing much at all about legal alternatives unless a lawyer or social worker associated with the courts, advises them.

We have to presume that Muslim women know what is best for them and that they make decisions accordingly, Orchid. Since it is not compulsory, they have the right to choose as to which system of mediation would best serve and protect their interests.



Understandably, only Muslims can arbitrate over Muslim affairs under Sharia. The Muslim community have Imams, as well as trained Mediators and Muslim lawyers.



If one would look at it from the cultural perspective where mediation helps rather than litigation, then Sharia is effective in that way. British law is also absolute, which means that Sharia rulings are expected to give effect to British laws where children and matrimonial matters are concerned. Have you thoroughly checked out the link I provided? It gives an insight to the cases brought before it by Muslim women.

They say, even though that preacher from Florida did not carry out his threat to burn the Koran, damage has already been done. Now this is sad. Innocent people get swept up in this stuff and
that's unfair!

I'm not impressed jabber, in fact disgusted by the actions of the Florida preacher. Very unknowing (ignorant) and lacking cross-cultural nuanced understanding. He strikes me a bumbling, evangelical hillbilly. He just likes to keep in the limelight even afterwards, to be photographed as the saviour, bridge, etc.

If the townspeople never warmed up to this guy because of his antics to attract attention on other stuff long before the Koran burning threat, then that says alot about his character in general.

Meanwhile there's other people working solidly away for past few years, building bridges without much fanfare and limelight. It's difficult work.

Lola you shared

"We have to presume that Muslim women know what is best for them and that they make decisions accordingly"

I believe people make the best choice they can at the time..That if they ask for help then assist them..if it is outwith my knowledge to assist then help them to find a person who can.
Only by learning about other cultures can we start to walk in the persons shoes.

I guess Lola it would be helpful to know (but right now I don't have to time to do deep reading on subject, I should be working on some blogs and cleaning up my pile of papers at home.) that shariah law is changed to be in step with the times which of course, means re-interpretation /revision of law occasionally. If such a concept exists in sharia law.

Also would help on the tribunal board for shariah there were female and male Muslim lawyers dually trained in both law of U.K. and sharia law.

I want to believe that imans are good people (I assume they are invariably men.) but they are only human just like pastors, priests and ministers.

Mountain Ash: It can help a person to assist, to have dual knowledge of dual cultures and languages.

Because when people start throwing around the term "political correctness", I often wonder if they even understand what it means to live in 2 worlds a cross-culturally where a person can see the good and negative stuff in embedded beliefs of one culture/religion, etc. It is world where a person must navigate. But after awhile when a person lives that type of world, one doesn't think about. But it is a world of relationship survival at times, otherwise there would be alot more (when there is enough of it already) shattered families in a multicultural, multi-generational society.

But I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

I agree the preacher from Florida has hindered rather than helped. And his motives make a person wonder what he's up to.
I like MA's statement that she believes people make the best
decisions they can, at the time; and, if you can't help them find someone who can. That is being kind and sensitive! I like that!

Orchid you say

"Mountain Ash: It can help a person to assist, to have dual knowledge of dual cultures and languages."

I endervour to do just that.in action in word and as an ongoing
task in an everchanging world.

I just read a fascinating post in the New York Times Op-Ed page and want to share it with everyone on this discussion.

The author is a woman born in the Middle-East - not a Muslim - who became an American citizen 9 years ago. It's a long article, but worth reading IMHO.

I hope you will read it and agree with me that while author Porochista Khakpour is not Muslim, she adds a lot to this discussion:

My Nine Years As a Middle-Eastern American

Whatever you think about what she has to say, you have to agree she expresses herself well. By the way, she is the author of the novel “Sons and Other Flammable Objects,” and a professor of literature at Santa Fe University of Art and Design.

Wonderfully eloquent. And yes, well worth reading. Thanks, Anne.

Thanks Anne. Yes. It's well worth the read!

Yesterday morning I listened to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf being interviewed by Christiane Amanpour of ABC. Among other things, Imam Rauf referred to this new center as a "cultural center" with an area for "interfaith exchange." (My husband thinks it might be a fairer deal if Muslim leaders showed reciprocal tolerance in permitting a Christian "interfaith" cathedral be built close to Mecca) Amanpour also asked questions about "America's Islamophobia" and those fringe elements who oppose Imam's building project. I did not know that opposition to Imam's plan meant one was "Islamophobic" or "fringe."

Imam Rauf said if he had known beforehand this building would cause such an uproar, he stated unequivically he would never EVER would have gone ahead with the idea. Amanpour oddly did not ask Imam's reaction to Donald Trump's very recent offer to buy the building at a 25% profit to whomever is funding the project (Imam will not disclose that funding information) Trump's offer would certainly have taken this Imam off the hook so to speak, but he rejected Trump's very generous proposal.

Later in the afternoon, I listened to NYC former Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who said, "The people he's hurting here most are the families that have lost loved ones down there. They don't all feel that way but 80 percent or 90 percent feel extremely hurt by this and it's making them relive the pain. They should be the ones to get the most consideration. Not the imam, not me, not the president, not the mayor. They're the ones that are the most affected by this," he said.

I have lived long enough to see people use any type of argument to make THEIR idea seem like "THE right way to go."

My hat is off to Mayor Giuliani, whose opinion appears to be born of the heart and nothing else.

Yet Josie, there is resistance in some communities in Tennessee, California that are resisting a proposed mosque.

How do you explain that? These are not 9/ll disaster sites.

In Canada, it was reported on national tv, that we have 200 mosques. The population of Muslims is predicted to grow to 1 million over the next 10 years.

Canada's census population in 2006 was 31 million, which by now is alot more.

I sense panic...similar to the Cold War in the 1950's, 1960's which led to the construction of military escape bunkers in Canada (one of them has now been turned into a museum) and U.S., when it was fear of the Communists from China, Russia and Korea to attack North America.

While no country is 100% safe, is any country in this world safe? All it takes is a marginalized, mentally unstable/angry person to shoot a bunch of people (as it has happened in the U.S.), it doesn't matter what colour, religious background, etc. that person is.

Alot of immigrants who become citizens will become your most ardent nationalists..because they have sacrificed so much to come to Canada or the U.S. They don't take their citizenship and constitutional rights for granted.

(I admittedly flaunt my Canadian passport --proudly when I stand in line to fly the airlines and at the international border checkpoints whenever I travel. )

Also moderate Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., don't make news press coverage, because it's not exciting reading in order to sell news media.

That's reality and the reality is the boring majority who just want to live life peacefully side-by-side whether it's here in North America, or in Germany or in Iran.


I have to go and do other stuff off-line.

In Germany 2,700 Moshees have been built since 1975. I couldn't find any statistic on what the total number is. Probably because many groups worship in their cellars, school yards, parking lots and parks. We have over 5 million Muslims in Germany. About half that number are here "illigally"...through family adoptions. Now how many times does Germany fit in Canada?

According to the 2009 Muslim yearbook 23-25 million Muslims live in Europe. And several billion people live under the islamic religion in the world. So open your doors Canada! You got much more room than we do.

Do you know Canada that a huge part of it is inhabitable, many thousands of kms. north where there are no roads, swampy land or Arctic land? All one has to do is look at map of Canada. The British Columbia coastline hardly has any villages, much less cities because it's all virgin protected forest, etc. Interior B.C. has several mountain ranges and parts are desert. It's shocking enough to see it even for me, from the airplane, the vast areas of open wilderness. Not arable land,no roads of any length, no nothing at all. No wonder why the Europeans love it.

I know about the road situation because dearie has had to plan bike trips solo to cycle across Canada, selection of any roads gets very thin once, one goes north less than 400 kms. northward in British Columbia and Ontario from each province's most southern tip. A person can cycle for several hundred kms. in certain parts of Canada...and encounter no public building, no food. It helps to be strong ...in mind, body.

So Canada continues to have its immigration application process (which is actually rigorous, I've helped my father fill out forms for relatives....when I was a teenager since I could use a typewriter at that time.), medical test requirements, etc. Backup sponsorship by Canadian relatives or employers for immigrant applicant. This all has to be documented.

Sure there are some queue jumpers but it's not at the level of some European countries. But don't know if that's just perceived, or Europe is just geographically closer.

below a bunch of danish visited vancouver this past week to find out why integration of immigrants is less "problematic" in scale.. It amused me that they asked academics/professors. Danes should have consulted Vancouver immigrant service managers and counsellors, plus community leaders who are well-versed and closer to the ground of what is truly happening.

Given your half-joking suggestion, Edelweiss, then it might be a reflection that the concept of national identity for Germany, Denmark, etc....it's harder for them to let go of the concept of German blood/heritage/history/language and integrate. And just ship people somewhere else, right?

Heck English and French languages in Canada is imported. Aboriginal languages (over 50 of them) are indigenous to Canada, not our 2 official languages.



Immigrants here do not get free housing, clothing, etc. i can confirm this since we have had relatives immigrate to Canada in past 25 years. My father was on paper, the "sponsor". As soon as relative got to Canada, they had to find a job..which they did. And find their own housing which we would give them tips.

I hope I have clearly explained in a practial way how immigrants under the normal process in Canada are dealt with at the beginning.

No wonder, why I can't relate to boomer reminscing about sock hops, dances, music, dating, etc.

I lived in different world...at times when I was teenager. I saw this side up close and personal in my extended family.

This continues to be a very thought-provoking discussion. I agree with Orchid on my impression of a sense of panic. And I go back to FDR and his famous proclamation about fear:

Specifically, what he said was related to the Depression and the economic times, but it is still relevant. Here's the exact quote, from the fifth paragraph of his first inaugural address in 1933:



Worth thinking about, isn't it?

I beg to differ Anne. Closing your eyes, and sticking your head in the sand does not make it go away.


Hitler wrote " Mein Kampf". In his book he clearly stated everything he was planning to do. You know what? Nobody read it. That's right. The Germans saw only the advantages. Him building new streets, low unemployment etc. I see the same thing happening here. Nobody listens to what the Muslims are preaching. This is not panic on my part. I won't be alive when it escalates on your grounds like it has in Germany. I have nothing to panic about. But I do worry for my children and grandchildren.

I'm proud to say that my father was a very important key to one of the assination attempts on Hitler. Sadly enough it didn't go through. So I was brought up with a keen awareness of politics and what is behind it.

I will not participate in this thread anymore. I don't think my posts are being read or thought through. And as for you, Orchid. I have had enough of your low blow insults. You have turned this into a personal vendetta. It's too bad that you can't hold a correct political discussion. Get off your high horse on race. It's not always about race.

Don't bother to send me a message. You are blocked!

It boils down to people dealing on a local level with their own local issues, though learning from other places that are able to deal effectively with immigration and acculturation issues.

Here's a community in the US that's welcoming a mosque. Evanston, IL just north of Chicago is a thoughtful place, not in a panic. The city has a long history of racial integration -- neighborhoods there have been integrated for decades and folks have worked very hard on getting along with diversity.

http://evanstonnow.com/story/news/charle...que-to-evanston

The mosque issue is a local zoning issue and NYC last winter -- and the news channels as well -- were okay with it. It just happens to be the midterm election time. Creating divisions is a long-time favorite tactic of demogogues -- blaming the other for "our" problems rather than actually figuring out what the problem is and then solving it. I don't get what the actual problem is with the mosque and community center. It's blocks away from Ground Zero and not even visible from there. Will all of Manhattan become sacred ground or what?

According to Bill O'Reilly, Imam is associated with a "Truther."
The latter allegedly said 911 was "inside" job? That America is
somehow responsible for the attacks of the 911? O'Reilly did
several segments on this subject. He and others apparently believe this mosque will be used to do more harm than good.
I don't know. I'm just repeating what these TV personalities are
reporting!

P.S. A truther generally rejects the accepted explanation of
911, claiming our own gov't was somehow behind the incident.

? When I explain general stuff, especially what I have directly experienced, etc., this is not at anyone or at you here. I'm sorry Edelweiss, maybe things are better here in North America. Only the bad receive frequent news press.

This is a most interesting aspect of the discussion. I can understand why Americans feel so emotional about anything associated with Ground Zero; I feel emotional as well. But a part of me wonders when we all became New Yorkers. Now people from all over, including me, are weighing on what is really the use of Manhattan real estate. There are already several mosques in lower Manhattan; did we all talk about them? Surely New York, like every other place, has its own local and state regulations about land use, building occupancies, and the like. And I wonder how I'd feel out here in Oklahoma if people everywhere wanted to talk about what building permits should be issued near the site of the Murrah building.

Want a bet that even if it is built someone blows the sucker to kingdom come. They have already had threats and yet they persist!

We have a new Congress and I am very hopeful that many things allowed to go on unscrutinized will now be looked at much closer by those who truly love our country...

All the politicians are at home in there beds with dreams of our tax dollars dancing in their heads!!!!

Cute!

Cute maybe but unfortunately, too true!!!