Just want to share this link. I thought it was a good article.

http://www.soth.net/sermons%202001/sermon%208-26-2001.htm

Edelweiss, dearest..thank you for the tip on the article. I read it, of course, I say..subjectively. And it kind of disappointed me..I think the author still gives alot of bad feelings to the poor person who has tried and tried so long..and still can´t find a way to survive in their marriage. He ends with all that about "death do us part"..it´s sort of his conclusion. I get the feeling that this is his main message..and that can breed guilt in someone who is trying so hard..but still not able to make it. Yes, I see myself in the article and do not think he gives me respect for the decision I finally made to "leave".

The picture of being 75 or 72 and hearing the cry that ends all communication is the picture that hurts the most, perhaps, when you decide that you must leave..because you will not, then, share your older years with this person that you have so much history with..in my case, as you know by now..32yrs of marriage and 5 children, one that has passed on, and 4 grandchildren. There is no other man that can share all of this with me..but still I couldn´t stay. I wanted to so badly..we had built so much together..but ´my hubby just didn´t have respect, maybe even love, for the person I had become.

I think the author is trying to show some understanding for those of us that have had to go..but he doesn´t succeed. And this disappoints me..do you understand??

Hugs, dear Edelweiss..and thank you anyway!

Humlan, I thought it a good article in the sense it made me think.

I don't agree with everything he says either. But I do think that some people marry, with the idea in their head that if it doesn't work out we'll get a divorce; especially young people tend to think that way.

I thought he had some interesting points:

" One thing your spouse has coming is the truth, not merely words honestly spoken, but truth that can be seen and felt. The line may need to be drawn, and suffering and endurance ended. But before doing that, consider whether or not you are speaking the love language of your spouse."

I can't read that whole sermon. But the question of this thread is a good question. If we want to continue with this thread, I'd like us to define a "bad marriage." The obviously bad marriage is one with violence, where either or both people are not safe, and children are threatened. Another obviously bad is with alcoholism and/or drug addiction, where the user has refused help. Another is financial infidelity, oh, of course other infidelity. Ok, so aside from the obvious, how do you define bad? Is it no sex, too much sex, not on the same wavelength, grown apart, values changed, one on a spiritual path, the other on a shallow existence. Is boring bad? Or do you just focus on the good and have gratitude and ignore what you are not getting that may make the marriage "bad." Is it bad when you marry your best friend, but then you've lost chemistry? I guess it's not bad if it doesn't bother each partner. The experts always say tht romantic love is not the same as long-term marriage love. Really asking what do you all think? L, PL

Don't you love the name Ginger Coffee? Names crack me up!
Agape love is wonderful but we humans have a hard time reaching that level. Christ had no problem with it because He was GOD. There isn't anything God can't do. Yes He was flesh too. But He was the Most High GOD! I attempt to live with agape love but I know that I know I fall far short of that goal.

I believe young people of today are afraid of marriage.
They know the statistics are 50% make it and 50% do not succeed. As a result, many, many babies are being raised without a dad! And that's a darn shame!

I agree with not staying in violent relationships. And sometimes another woman comes in and takes your man.
Then, you have no other choice but to let go!

I did enjoy the article, Edelweiss! Thanks!

How about if a women is so bored she goes to another man? By the time she has started an affair, she has already let go, emotionally.

This is an interesting topic and one whose answer has certianly changed through the years. I bet we'd get differing opinions from every generation.

The younger kids see divorce as an option, but our parents didn't think that way.

I don't know the answer, but I think it has a lot to do with feeling respected and valued as a woman.

I agree with you jabber. I think nowadays our children grow up in a society of so much divorce they aren't as interesting or maybe compelled to "tie the knot" with someone they love. I know when I was a girl I dreamed of turning 18 and marrying. I have a grown daughter who is 29 and a single mom. She has no desire to marry. I can't blame her. I don't want my kids to think that because I can't find a spouse that I want to stay with the rest of my life, I don't take marriage seriously. I just pick the wrong type of men to marry, probably because I don't think I deserve better? If that makes any sense...

I've always marvelled at some elderly people who have been married 60, even 70 years. I believe our parents felt that "till death do us part" was the way it was no matter what and they were far more committed to marriage than generations after that. That being said, I also feel that many stayed in horrible relationships forever because "that's the way it was." Our generation came along and may have recognized that and we started the divorce explosion. So now our children do feel it's more of an option than not. By the way, welcome Kit Kat !

Welcome KitKat to the forum...

I feel sorry for those women who stayed in a marriage because of their religion, or because they were always taught it was 'till death do you part.' My own wonderful mother stayed with my dad who was abusive mentally, and tried to keep her bare foot and pregnant, literally. She divorced him after 25 years BUT only because we older kids made her do it. Dragged her to a lawyer. She said she never would have done it on her own. She was terrified and was completely shocked to see she could make it on her own.

Now however, marriage is like a pair of shoes, if they hurt your feet after awhile, off they go and get a new pair, dress too tight, 86 it. Job doesn't make you feel good, quit, get a new job and so on and so on. Where and when, if ever, will there be a happy medium? Woman aren't those intimated little girls anymore... This is a good thing but has some bad circumstances as well. It is hard on todays children too.

I believe in divorce, obviously, when nothing else works and the abuse, alcoholism, infidelity, whatever...does not stop. Period. It's rare that people change and the ones who do...well, good for them.

Remember that the average life span was only 35 when this "until death do we part" started. No one ever thought they would live long enough to be with someone for 50 or 60 years.

Louisa...so true. My son sent me this yesterday...

A woman awakes during the night to find that her husband was not in their bed. She puts on her robe and goes downstairs to look for him.

She finds him sitting at the kitchen table with a hot cup of coffee in front of him. He appears to be in deep thought, just staring at the wall.
She watches as he wipes a tear from his eye and takes a sip of his coffee.

"What's the matter, dear?" she whispers as she steps into the room, "Why are you down here at this time of night?"

The husband looks up from his coffee, "I am just remembering when we first met 20 years ago and started dating. You were only 16. Do you remember back then?" he asks solemnly.

The wife is touched to tears thinking that her husband is so caring, so sensitive. "Yes, I do" she replies.

The husband pauses. The words were not coming easily. "Do you remember when your father caught us in the back seat of my car?"

"Yes, I remember," said the wife, lowering herself into a chair beside him.

The husband continues. "Do you remember when he shoved the shotgun in my face and said, "Either you marry my daughter, or I will send you to jail for 20 years?"

"I remember that, too" she replies softly.

He wipes another tear from his cheek and says... "I would have gotten out today”.

Hi and welcome 2 kitkat!!!
My grandfather cheated on my grandmother. She knew it! But they stayed together over 60 years. Their only daughter was married over 70 years to the same man. I've researched recent articles on this subject, "Till death do us part?" for a manuscript. 1 study focused on [Divorce-Prone individuals and the question of why some persons fail in 1 marriage after another; serial marriages; etc.] 1 expert said marriage failed because of 3 issues: self-involved narcissists; those that are compliantly depressed; and life's unforeseen changes. Another said between 1960 and 2004 the number of unmarried couples increased from less than 1/2 million to over 5 million. But many Ph.D. folks think women stay in marriages because of the children. Broken homes really mess up the kids, for life. I tend to agree!!!

P.S. If the kids are grown and you're unhappy, chuck the whole thing and enjoy your life!!!! Me thinks!!!

I think 'till death do us part...unless the following happens" should be added to the wedding vows. I mean who signs up for physical abuse? Adultry? Alcohol or drug abuse that does not stop? If some jackass decides being married to a woman gives him the right to abuse her...he deserves to be dumped.

What a loaded question- how long do you stay in a bad marriage?

Having the priveledge of working with women worldwide as a Business/Life Coach specializing in divorce, I have seen many different situations. I do believe in marriage, but we all have to be true to ourselves to be the best we can be.

I was married for 20 years to a man who was passive aggressive and verbally abusive. I look back on how little self-esteem and confidence I had in myself. I felt I was just existing. How could I be a good role model for my children?

I have been divorced for 12 years. I love my life. I have never been happier. I have not remarried, yet I have had several wonderful men come into my life who have helped me know who I really am. They all were a part of my life for a reason.

Being true to yourself allows all your gold nuggets that exist within shine through.

I have two very successful grown children with healthy relationships. They have mentioned several times of how proud they are of their mom.

Bottom line- listen to your heart and be the woman you were meant to be.

Oh my Dee, what a priceless story. It made me laugh out loud. I imagine husbands feel the same losses we women feel who stay married for a longtime.

I still believe half of staying in a bad marriage is fear of making it on our own, me inclued in that for awhile. Yet we forget we made it alone before and are better prepared now with children mostly grown to do it aqain. I would rather be broke HAPPY, then RICHER and SAD!!!! Lie is too darn short.

If a man/woman cheats and the partner knows and children are involved then what happens.?

Do the childen "try " harder and choose what they see as a stable partner rather than a soul mate?

Do they remain unmarried?

Do they become cheats?

What does it do for the partner if this is a serial thing?

Is there a tit for tat revenge ?
It was so sad at school when kids tried to process new Daddy/uncle thing.stepmother and Dad's girlfriend.
Some took it in their stride but at times I saw deep distress.And a personality change.A stand still in their development.
No one starts off with the intention I am sure.

I do fully believe where there is abuse then the woman should leave.Again as much for the offspring as herself.

And in the event of one partner needing the support many Boomers give and receive.How hard it must be to do the best when there is resentment due to past misdemeanors.
Forgiving ...is it possible if betrayal has happened.

I have experience .
My Mother divorced her husband my Father ,,he left when I was one.And had been on war work.I do not remember these days.I was blanketed into my mothers family with much love from my Grandparents.yet in adulthood I processed those aunts who disapproved that Mother had "done this" she indeed handed me fully over to her parents..or did she? It was unspoken .she died without me really knowing her as a mother.I am aware in many relationships I have tried to recreate a Mother/daughter bond which is IMPOSSIBLE.
In training I confronted many issues,,and because of my personality carried saddness inward.never sharing.Wise Grandparents knew me...and showed me ways to compensate.They had a daughter who died..I am named for her and in some ways that too was a pressure.
I reached my potential academicly and choose a route to helping many..so in life we compensate (I believe)
I met a soul mate (after a few frog kissing) and together we have a home/family.
No one has a ideal childhood.I have listened and observed many many others.
But
we have choices and many agengies exist for supporting families. Starting with those in our vicinity then schools...churches and self help groups.
In giving we receive..
Mountain ash

My answer is "I don't know."

Forgiveness is the only way to be free of your past.

Otherwise the bitterness and resentment will hold you back, cause an unbelievable amount of stress and as we all know stress can cause illness both mentally and physically. I always remember the expression- "What you think about, you bring about."

My former husband was caught cheating. Yes it hurt, but I had to let that go in order to live the life I desire and deserve!

Joanie

I can forgive because thats the Christian thing to do BUT forget, now thats another story. Once a CHEAT in my estimation and experience, always a CHEAT! Kick him to the curb after you forgive the loser.They don't change they just get better at it and harder to catch a second, third time etc.

I'm not sure there's an answer to the question...it just seems to be a rhetorical question to me. Each person is different, has different levels of "stamina" I suppose.

Chatty, that is so true about forgiving and never forgetting. Heck if I ever forgot what my cheating ex put me through emotionally and financially, I would be downright stupid I think. I put up with probably the last 4-5 years of my marriage dealing with someone who was lying and cheating as well as drinking heavily and most likely getting involved with drugs (the gal he got involved with WAS busted on drug theft felonies). Fortunately, the bust happened AFTER we divorced so I didn't have to put up with any of the outfall from THAT episode. My ex just turned out to be the male equivalent of a drama queen.

I learned some lessons, and whilst I don't hold that against any other man, I primarily learned about myself during that experience. Yes, the fear of making it alone was there--INITIALLY. Heck, I was married 24 years and married young. But I sucked it up, realized I had a stable career, some brains, some education, and knew my kids weren't raised to either lie or cheat OR put up with any kind of abuse...verbal, mental, emotional, or physical. And I DO consider anyone who lies or cheats or steals as being abusive--they cause you to question your own sanity when they deny the truth. Kick those buttheads to the curb is what I say!

Every post here has real merit. And I agree that each person has to do what's best for them, at the time and in their particular circumstance. Life 'tis hard; and marriage is harder. Pursuit of happiness is our civil right. No one should take that away from anyone! And IMO no person should have 2 put up with abuse, either physical or mental! If a gal is being tormented or abused, like Chatty said, "Kick him 2 the curb!!!"

"Pursuit of happiness is a civil right."

How true is that? But often it's within the pursuit that women in poor marriages get dragged down and lose their fight for a better life. Sad, but true.

I think that the definition of a bad marriage is different for everyone. Some women are not traumatized by infidelity...heck...they go for it, too! The same with alcholism...it's not a breaker for everyone. For one woman it might be that her husband who was faithful and sober but was totally unattentive and never listened to her...made her terribly lonely and unhappy.

I think we can only answer the question for ourselves in the context of the relationship that we are in.

And I guess for the me answer to how long she stays in what she considers to be a bad marriage depends a lot on her since of self worth. It's only when you decide that your personal life is more important than anyone else's opinion that you can actually leave.

Just my thoughts.

Jane, great point. Some women accept the alcoholism and the affairs. How amazing is that? But you're right, some are also the ones drinking and having the affairs. We're all different. What we want for others isn't always what they want for themselves.

Anne you are a HOOT!!! I am really into this Law of Attraction thing..if you saw my nite table you would cry..or laugh..all these books on the Law of Attraction and Vibration and Allowing..o yes..I am becoming expert. But as you point out..it doesn´t wash in all situations.. I am using it to become this sickenly positive person in the later years of my life! I mean if I should happen to attract more money or happier life..that´s ok by me. But I promise not to spout my theories on you! He he!!!

I really love you, gal!!!

Jane your post was interesting..everyone does have different ways of seeing things..and even these opinions change. I think it´s so important to support those around us..help them along their chosen way..because you never know a person until you have walked in his/her shoes...hmmm..

If the pendulum IS swinging to the other extreme..divorces left and right and often..perhaps that is what has to happen to bring it all down to a middle way in the end. Some men/women have endured very difficult marriages over the years..for the sake of the vows they once made and society`s judgement..this can´t be ideal either.. as many of you say..

The thing is, we're all so complex. Don't know about U, but 1 day I'll feel a certain way about a particular subject.
Then a few days later, I'll feel differently about that exact topic. Mindsets seem to fluctuate with moods. I don't know, perhaps that's just female hormones???

jabber, You hit the nail on the head. Hormonal mayhem strikes again.

"Hormonal mayhem," that's a great name 4 it! Ever fail at not allowing yourself to get angry; U couldn't stop. U explode. U apologize. U tell yourself never again. And a few days later, you apologize 4 the same darn thing: U got angry and exploded again. Geesh! Those dang emotions R a real pain!!! Then U add PTSD; and Heaven help us, all.

Jabber, I love the term Hormonal Mayheim, it is right on!!

I may have mentioned this before but when I got the courage to leave my abusive husband I read something somewhere. It said give your all, 100% of your all for six months. After that time if nothing has changed, then leave which is what I did.

I do not regret it at all, only if I had to do it again I would be more choosey and marry a better father for my kids as they did and still do suffer. But at the time I just didn't know what I know now.

My parents stayed married and lived their life in misery. For 40 years they had no intimacy. They both told me that. My Dad passed away six months ago. Now my Mom is dating at the age of 81. I told her to go for it as she doesn't have another 50 years. Although I think she should it still feels weird and I don't want to know about it really. Funny thing is if one of my Dad's friends or someone else they know did that she would go on and on about how terrible it was, dating before a year is even up. She can be very judgmental and I try real hard not to be.

Now a days young people are more cautious and so they should be with the divorce rate. I put that down to women being stronger. Also it's common now and women help each other to get through it. Also there are many support groups out there now that there never were in my parents generation. I just wish women would make smarter choices before they marry the guy in the first place. (me included)

The only downside to our culture is that the kids are the ones who suffer. They really get ripped off losing their two parent family. Or which is often the case one of the parents or both move on and create new families and often kids feel like they don't fit in that parents life anymore, especially when they have more kids like my ex did. Now that family is more important to him than his kids from his first family.

Also it is not easy for them to adjust to step parents, girlfriends, boyfriends etc. Some step parents are great, but often they are nightmare, poor kids.
Kate

All good points. But when we marry, I truly believe that for the most part, we do make the best decisions we can at that time, using the information we have. I was married for a very long time (24 years). How could I have looked into the future to see that my ex was going to have what looked like a huge midlife crisis, complete with addictions and affairs and some really bizarre behavior?

You can't foresee the future. And when it comes down to it, I probably made a "good" decision when I married. He was normal, had a decent family (I loved 'em...and still in contact with some of them). You can never tell what you will encounter in this life, nor can we ever tell ourselves that something will remain. I just know I wasn't one of those women who could have remained in a marriage that was hit hard by addictions and adultery. It just wasn't in me.

Katebcca, your parents decided to stay together for whatever reasons they had. I think my parents were sort of in the same boat, only not just as long. My dad passed away at a young age (60). I do know there was no intimacy there for a long time though. I'm not sure if that was a good situation or a bad situation for us kids as we were growing up. There certainly wasn't a lot of affection between my mom and dad. I know they each loved us but I also don't know if they were great role models for marriage.

Too I often have wondered how in the heck do people stay in long marriages? We don't get an owner's manual lol when we get married. Where does one get those "skills" to navigate those times when it's downright HARD to stay---when your husband cheats, when there are financially rough times, when one spouse is very ill? I just see a lot of the "me me me me" thought going on when people consider divorce. Yes, we need to consider our well-being, but I've also read some articles where if couples hang in there, they're happier five years later anyway. Too I wondered sometimes if today folks understand the idea of commitment? I felt bad about getting divorced because my word meant something to me -- "to death do us part." I sometimes wonder with the high divorce rate in this country if we really know how to be married.

Post #159616 is fallout from an attempt at self-improvement. I recall Joyce Meyer sermons, where she had to address self-anger problems. I try not to get upset but when I do, I quickly pray 2 make it go away. I'm getting better at staying calmer, if confronted with unsettlingly difficult situations. Wild Bill is a mild-mannered person and that helps. My 1st husband had a fiery disposition; maybe that's why he's my EX. I thought maybe others had anger issues [hormonal mayhem], which contributed to marital discord.

Kate, how are you doing since the death of your father? Are things getting any easier?

I got a kick out of your comment about your mom dating, but if it was soemone else, she'd be judging them to hell. What a riot. ou have such a good, honest take on your mom and I think that's great. Has she warmed up to your boyfriend lately? Don't mind me for being nosey?

keyholes, your post makes me think there should be support groups for married couples who are doing fairly weel, so they can recognize what they have and not want to wander, or do any of the other stupid things that happen when people end up divorcing.

Kate, I'm with you. The kids always suffer and I can't stand watching it.

I would not say that things are getting easier, just less painful. I still miss him and do pray for him every night, pray that he is happy. He is always on my mind and I love it when I dream of him and remember it. Those dreams are so nice. I can hear him and the things he would say at certain times. I do believe he is with me in spirit. When I got over the shock and anger of him leaving I finally calmed down and now find comfort in knowing he is still around me, I just can't see him.

Yes my mother, she is the most judgmental person I know. She comments on absolutely everything other than the important stuff, what the person is like on the inside. It's all about appearances, what will people think etc. When she goes some where and calls me I have to hear all about their terrible outfits, hair doos, etc. drives me crazy. But, if she can find some happiness so be it. She drove my Dad crazy and as a result missed out on being close to him. She needs some male attention big time.

She never mentions my boyfriend. I did think about the day when she wants to introduce me to hers. I thought about how I should tell her "I will meet yours when you meet mine"
But, I will take the high road. She is missing out and that is her problem, not mine.

Yes, poor children. Very few end up in a better situation than what they had. It's so sad. Seems hard to avoid though in our culture. At least they have company if it does happen to them. I know in my circle of friends it is hard to find parents still on their original marriage. Kids just seem to get used to it. But it does have a negative affect on them, no getting around it.
Kate

Dotsie, there are some support groups. Unfortunately, what I've found has been a little bit, way too late. A last-minute, pull-out-all-the-stops effort I tried, after all marraige counseling failed was to go through Retrovaille, which is sponsored by the Catholic Church. We were both raised in the church, so I figured it would at least be a good try.

It didn't work. But you are right in that there are few groups (at least from what I found) that are out there to help support and educate couples in maintaining their marriage. Not to sound sarcastic, but the Catholic Church for all of their preaching about the sanctity of marriage, had very little in the way of marital education except for what they call Pre-Cana (pre-marriage counseling, the stuff you get when you have the "love jones" any way and think it's "forever") and Retrouvaille, which is only for severely distressed marriages.

It's sad I think. If there are such groups out there, I sure didn't find them 7 or 8 years ago! When I went through all of this, I felt as if even close family members and friends didn't want to "interfere," that it was a personal problem they had no business to butt into. Still, divorce affects not only the couple but an entire family, kids (even adult kids) suffer. I know mine have to make decisions that annoy them like which parent to spend a holiday with. That's just so wrong in my book. And in my case, I have two kids making careers out of it. One has a doctorate in family communications with a focus on post-divorce families and one is majoring in psychology with an emphasis on addiction studies. She wants to be an addictions counselor. My hopes and prayers are that they find ways to work with people whose relationships are damaged.

Jabber,

I honestly believe a lot of my ex's problems were due to internalized anger. Goodness was he angry nearly all of the time the last 4-5 years of our marriage. Nothing ever made that man happy. Men as they age do have drops in testosterone I think. My ex's anger just spread through to me...it made me angry just to be in his presence. I'd just pick up this seething vibe. He really lashed out at quite a few people I understand during this period.

Emotional mayhem is for real!!! I never really experienced it except by proxy through my ex. Even going through menopause, my worst problems right now are just hot flashes and brain farts (oops, fog LOL). But I've always been a pretty easy-going person and menopause is just making me all the more so.

A long the same lines - HOW LONG DO YOU STAY IN A BAD FAMILY?
I'm on the verge of cutting and running!
NO #%+@#%!
I must be the most threatening, most evil, most envy provoking, et al in the world. I think I'd be better away from everyone trying to take me down, parent(s) included.
Every so often, I experience a tinge of hope, but it's here today, gone tomorrow. I'm hurting myself more by waiting for the next good day. How long does it take to get over a divorce?
Not a wink last night - still up from yesterday morning - mulling over the c*r*a*p the surfaced day before yesterday.
HELP!!!!
(I'm proud of myself - I'm not down about this, for some reason. Hope that means I'm on an emotional mend.)

That a girl gims! Stay true to yourself! Whatever it is, just be your own best friend! And you got friends here to help you along the way!!!!!

gims, have you shared how you feel with your family? I hope you don't mind my asking. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. I'm just curious if they know how disgruntled you are with them...

Heel EW's advice. She's always right on!

kate, you are such a good girl not to want to turn the tables on your mom. It ever pays to be vindictive. Not in my book.

Anger has a lot to do with people not being happy with who they are, where they are, etc. in life. Key, sounds like he took it out on everyone around him. Do you thiink he's happy now, or will ever find true happiness?

That I really do not know...if he's happier now or not. I haven't talked to him now in nearly 5 years. The last time I'd seen him was a doozy though LOL. We'd been divorced a bit and he showed up at my door...kicked out of his girlfriend's house, she was up on the felony drug theft charges, no money, no job. Nada. I gave him the couch for a night and he stayed 2 weeks. I had to call the cops to kick him out because I gave him 2 rules: 1) no communication with the drug felony girlfriend and 2) no drinking/boozing/drugging while under my roof. There was to be NO talk of reconciliation during this time, either. (I was terrified he'd try because he was well....disgustingly pathetic and desperate at this point.) Both rules were violated and I told him out. He refused to leave. I called cops. He took off in his truck in a flash when I was on the phone to 911. He was drunk.

Kids don't really keep me up to date on his comings and goings although I do know he lives in a completely different city than me now (we both moved out of the area we lived in when married) and he did experience some severe regrets at some of his actions and words because he lost three grandparents, a father, and two close friends (all died) during this time. I think part of that played into this. My thoughts: along the lines of AA. He may be experiencing some of those "twelve steps" and is working through them if he is making amends with his family (kids and his mom)--I do know he has been visiting his mom much more frequently since his father passed and the kids do tell me he makes good tries at spending time with them. But I don't believe I'll ever really know. Kids have told me he's terrified of ever even being in the same room as me....I must be terribly evil and cruel Some folks have told me it's because he's deeply ashamed of what he's done and unable to deal with me yet. I don't know.

When 2nd daughter graduated college earlier this summer, we made separate trips for separate events (he attended her art exhibition, I attended the actual ceremony). Sad but true. I'm not sure if I even care to know if he's happy. It just hasn't crossed my mind in a very long time until you asked. I was just quite relieved and happy for myself once the smoke cleared and I got on with my life.

Sounds like you made the best decision. I also appreciate and applaud you for setting such fantastic boundaries. You must be one strong woman.

Also, just want to share that I like the way you express yourself through writing.

Keyholes, I agree with Dotsie. You must be a very strong woman! So good that your life is in control again, and that you are happy! Yes, taking control and guiding your life. I guess that is what it's all about.

gims,
Life is too short to stay in toxic relationships! I agree with those gals that say, "B true 2 yourself"; if you don't take care of U, no one else will.
Prayers and blessings,

P.S. I tried to weigh in on this thread 1 other day and lost the post. Sorry 4 the delay!!!

Someone said, TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE! I don't remember who said it but they were right on...

keyholes, I agree with dots... you made the right decision, a not so easy one I'm sure. Glad you could get on with your life.

It was the only choice I saw for my own sanity!!!!! Living with someone with an addiction they won't seek help with is not healthy. It gets ugly and ends up wasting your life. On the other hand, if someone is willing to admit they have a problem and will do "the work" to fix it, that's another story.

You're all so sweet .

On a side note, has anyone ever seen the series on A&E called Intervention? I saw it for the first time last night and was that scary. They showed a young girl with a crack problem and a young man with a heroin problem. What they did to themselves AND their families was ugly and depressing. (Fortunately, both decided to go to a rehab program and "redo" their lives.)

I have seen it Keyhole a dozen times or more, and yes it is scary, BUT I really feel they accompliash alot to help heal these addicts... It always amazes me to see how low and discusting some of these people become. I can't imagine allowing myself to slip into such depts...No one forces these people to do drugs, or alcohol. They do it willingly, at first especially... SCARY!!!

Good afternoon ladies~ I'm dredging up this thread because I had a long, long email from my niece last night saying that she'd had enough of her marriage and she indicated that she might be fearful of her husband. They're young, started out pregnant, broke, minimal education, crappy job. I think she might be a bit bright, but a bit lazy as well, but fairly sweet. Just as background info, my sister, her mother, has had a horrible temper her whole life and is known for her insane fits of rage. Jessie has had her share of screaming rages but I think only in her young adult life. I have never met her husband Mark so I can't comment too much on him. He doesn't appear to be any kind of go-getter but I have no idea really, but I think he's had a string of menial jobs that don't last for long.

So, here's the deal - she wrote me, told me that her mother and MY mother both told her to grow up and quit including them in her drama and to be a better wife. With that said... I gave her this advice:

"Well.... I have to give this all some thought before I can really think of much to say.
But... I will say this. Of course, you have two choices - to leave or stay, and what each of those choices will encompass.

One) You did make a vow, whether well thought out or not. You were absolutely firm in your decision to get pregnant and marry, bad choice or not, it is what it is.
In that vow, you said "for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, etc."
Now, not belaboring that particular issue - where exactly is the faith that you spoke so much about? You either have faith that God can do anything, and change even this, or you don't believe it, in which case, same question - where is your faith and where do you apply that in your life?

Choice two) You leave. Do you have a way of leaving, you said you didn't have a running car? Where exactly will you go? Are you prepared to go to a shelter if necessary, because that could be the next step if you seriously want to get a new start. If you plan to leave, you need to be prepared for the worst, just in case. You can't just plop yourself on someone's doorstep making them responsible for supporting you. If you need a restraining order, you need to go to the court and/or the sheriff's office to get one, and you need to have proof and a real reason that you need protection from him.
You NEED to have a plan. And be prepared to work two jobs, one for child care, one to pay for a room because you're not going to be able to afford anything else at this point. Be prepared to be exhausted until Roslyn goes to kindergarten. And honestly, that would happen whether you stay or go. It's just the nature of the circumstance.
Neither choice will be easy. They both require work, either on your knees praying and seeking guidance, and finding out what in YOUR OWN PERSONAL life needs to change to provide the opportunity for GOD to work in him, and to help yourself mature...

... or you go out, work as hard as you can, going from one job to another and seeing your baby daughter in between, and dig in and just know that if you really, really, really, really, really want a change it can be done. But this kind of change, either way, needs to be done BY you, and ONLY YOU. This is almost a rite of passage because this is where YOU make YOUR decision. Nobody else can take the credit for it, and no one else can take the flak for it either. This is YOUR responsibility and you must take it. In this, you will grow. Do not deny yourself this opportunity to let God work in YOU.

Personally, (for someone who didn't want to say too much) - you know that your uncle (my husband) had substance issues and I had a horrible time dealing with that, but I made my decision and I stayed. And I prayed, and I prayed, and started working on myself and let God deal with him and he did a wonderful job and we no longer have those issues. God sees a true pure heart and he rewards those who diligently seek HIS face. He'll take care of the rest.

So........... whaddya think?

K

Sorry for the truly long post.

Good advice Kate, at least you gave her the fascts, no holds barred. Not to sound kurt but I find we usually stay in a bad marriage:

TOO LONG!!!!

Boy, if being engaged gets you lies, dirty laundry and [censored]......ewwwwwwww. The laundry... okay, but after 30 years, my husband does laundry, dishes, vacuums and mops, without being told or asked... and he doesn't do it all the time, but he does it a lot more than I do. And he was (just in case you were wondering) NOT a girly guy whatsoever. He's a guy guy and admittedly, when we were first married he thought that all that stuff was 'women's work'.... yeah, that lasted about one year. If I work, we share. Not necessarily 50-50 because it changes all the time, but right now while I'm trying to do my art 'thing' he's doing the chores just like he did when I was going out to my job.

I just didn't want my neice to think she can get mileage out of being a victim because sooner or later - nobody wants to hear it. Help yourself or don't but assume responsibility for your life and take it somewhere.

I hope I got that across.

K

Now I'm a little embarrassed at my concern. Today, she has a message up about getting a car... evidently there was some kind of power shift or something and .... and I don't know why I didn't expect it. Sorry to have posted all that.

You're right... no tolerance for that kind of fear.

K

You wrote a very good letter, Kate.

I was drawn into many a fight between my son and his wife. I would get so upset while imagining how they are going to handle custody...and so on and on..... I’d stay awake nights, exhausting myself with worry. Meanwhile back at the ranch, so to speak, the kids would kiss and make up....AND forget to inform me!!!…While sacks as big as a Smart Car would form under my eyes; they were romping around together again!!! Ugh.

I've told them to leave me out of their fights in the future. Now I don't find out about anything; and it is truly bliss.

Right on! I haven't heard from her since I posted that long thing, and it's probably just as well. It's just interesting though - everyone has such a different concept of what their relationship is, or how they think it's supposed to go. And it's work, that's all, just some life work that you have to do, and find a compromises to things so that you accomodate each other. I think young people just don't get it.

Anyway.........

Kate

Kate, I'm grateful she feels close enough to you to ask. That's great that a niece will come to you for advice. You were wise to point out that we are often the ones who need to change. However, unless he's abusing her. That's another story.

The comments about hearing the ins and outs of loved ones relationships is so true. Mom told us years ago not to air our dirty laundry because while angry, you can say some very hurtful things about a loved one. You may mean it for the moment, others read into it, think the worse, and then life resumes as normal. It wasn't all that bad. You were just angry and sharing the absolute worst thoughts and feelings.

My daughter called to tell me she and her beau broke up this week. I have to be very careful about what I say about him because it's very likely they will end up back together. Holding my tongue is so very hard.

It's hard for a parent not to let their feelings known, when children date people mom or dad don't really approve of. As Dotsie said, they'll probably end up with that person in the long run. It happened to me. My son was married with a baby when his current spouse broke up that marriage. I lit into the second babe, in a thunderous rage. My son has been married to the second gal for years; and I feel like the MIL from h*&l! But love for that 1st grandchild ramped up unpleasant emotions, which put my mouth in gear. I should've shut up! Nobody wants to lose their children. So watch what you say. Son and 2nd DIL treat me fine, now. But I can't help but think this current DIL has some ill will festering deep down within. I wouldn't blame her. And I regret all that stuff, which came out of my mouth, long, long ago!

jabber, I'm sure you only had your son and your granchild's best interest at heart when you shared how you felt.

I honestly need to follow my parent's example. They always minded their own business when it came to their five kids and our boy/girlfriends, and eventual spouses. I don't know how they did it.

And now Dad is so good about minding his own business with regards to all of our children. I guess they were never controlling parents. I'm really trying to give up control now that thye're all out of the house.

It's really about zipping our lips.

Our pastor once said, while I was probably sniveling about Scott and all his *situations*, to be very careful of what I said because negative words were, in effect, character assasination. When I thought of it like that, I started learning to hold back.

Learning that "every word that doth proceed from my mouth" is not golden was very valuable to me. I didn't like it, but so what?
And we create or destroy things with the fruit of our lips.

THAT lesson is either great or it makes you squirm. I've done both.

K

It isn't easy to do. I've said some stuff I wish I had never
uttered over the years. The older I get, the harder I try to
keep my mouth shut! Words can be killers. And it's hard to repair broken relationships.

Why will I prolong my agony..they are other woman stayed in a bad marriage was because for their children, but if things doesn't really working out no matter how you want to keep it the way it should be, better to end the relationship. It's also hard for the children seeing their parents always fighting over nonsense things.

And we create or destroy things with the fruit of our lips.
i love that line kate
i also think you wrote a wonderfull letter, i be with some thought your a wonderfull antie and women to be around.

EW good advice and stratigie regarding your kids and you worrieing yourself sick about them, good stratigie.

relatives kids, frends it all hard when situasions about relashionships come up and what we say and how we effected by what we hear, getting balanse right so hard at times.


a lot of love wisdom and understandings needed all around whenever relashionships come up don'tya thinbk

I too would like the definition of a "bad Marriage" explained. Of course, that cannot be done because each individual expereience has it's own definition.

I am in a marriage that I am am questioning just that. It is "too bad to stay and too good to go". I was very disrespected by my husband (broke our partnership, while I was away on vacation with my 23 yr old duaghter= hired someone to do my work in our business.) That was one year ago and I have been searching out my new "career" and looking at my options at age 53 and coming up with nothing too exciting.

I am recently wondering if the trust was so broken in my heart that I simply cannot forgive. I am wondering why I think being angry willhelp me move forward and I cannot come up with the answer. He has apologized several times asking me what he can do show me that he loves me. He is happy. I am depressed and still sad that I cannot seem to find that passion for life, work etc.

I have hired a Life coach and I do not know if that will help. They are very expensive...but this is one "career' that I have thought I might enjoy and doesnt' require 3-4 years of college training. I was a full-time mom for 25 years. I am married for 31 years to this man. I was one of those women who got pregnanat and decided to get married. I loved being a mom and it was very easy for me. I now see that I had no support for developing myself outside of being a mother and that all women need to have that for themselves.....

How Long Do you stay in a Bad Marriage? I don't know. I even bought, for $400; the Mort Fertel Marriage Boot Camp and can't seem to get through it. I guess I am tired of "working" on creating love, even though I know it can be "made."

Athena

No one can make anyone love them... Love isn't made it is earned, deserved if all goes as it should. However it's anyones guess as to how long to stay in a marriage, good or bad LOL!!!!

OOPS, I almost forgot to say WELCOME ATHENA

Hi, Athena: Welcome! My name is Alice (just joined). I stayed in an abusive "marriage" for 31 years (36 in all), and finally through excruciating self-talk, reading, etc...got a divorce.

There is a book: "Too Good To Leave Too Bad to Stay by Mira Kirschenbaum.....the awfulest (just made that up) thing is that NO ONE can really help you make the decision.

Are your needs being met? I think that is a good question. i am not sure what your husband did, but you sound as you feel betrayed. Anger is good and necessary; it tells you there is something wrong and needs to be addressed.

I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group; if you'd ever like to talk, I'd be honored to be a part of what is happening in your life.

I went back to school at age 61, and won a women's scholarship; it was easy; all I had to do was write about my life.

I've written my memoir: Ghost Child to Triumph (from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice), and just met ChattyLady here, and sent her my manuscript today. I took money out of my retirement to get it published; always living on the edge.

I try to do it now and say it now, because tomorrow or the next second isn't promised to us.

www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com.....over 16,100 hits so far (what happened to me as I fought spiritual abuse for 18 months after getting a divorce).

Lovely to meet you here...as I tell my clients.....keep talking! It helps.

PS "Marriage boot camp?" Wouldn't that take 2?

My picture is the second one down from the top; still can't figure out how to get it to attach to my messages; I am a dancer, singer, writer and poetess.

Computers are not in my lexicon!

Love and hugs, Alice

Geesh, before all you ladies get out your pitch forks and storm my castle gates, hating me for breaking the bank on poor Alice, please know that my fee for editing is less than any editor around and my clients that have checked, tell me that.

I just finished one of three jobs where I charged a woman with a manuscript of 206 pages a $1.50 a page which was $309.00 and her last quote from another editor for the same exact manuscript was $1000.00 for minimal errors, or if too many errors, she then add's on $500.00 more. Thats ridiculous and most editors do not even edit for continuity of story as I do. Thats one of the most important thing publishers look for.

My fee has been $1.25 for several years with my having just raised it to $1.50 per page to help cover the rise in material costs, etc.

Okay so is it safe for me to leave the castle now?? I need groceries.

Your castle is safe! Your rates are very reasonable!


The drawbridge is down, and you may go and get those groceries!

Love, Alice