I am dismayed to see the direction so many posts on this forum have taken. As a member for almost 3 years, I joined this forum for the networking, support, and friendship of all of you women. I have found that and am thrilled.

But lately, since the beginning of this election process and the major crunch of our economy, I see MANY posts with arguments, name calling, attacks, etc.

If you're wondering if it's YOU I'm talking about, then maybe it is. You'll know if you're involved in all the snipping and constant back and forth going on. And you know what, free speech is good and all that, but I honestly feel like this forum is NOT the place for it.

There are many places online where you can go to discuss/argue or whatever you want to do, about politics, the economy, race, etc. In my opinion, this forum is for sharing, caring, networking, and support. And while some of that is still happening, I don't see nearly as much of it - I see more and more of the angry bantering.

Is anyone else feeling this way, or am I alone in my thoughts?

K

Dancing Dolphin,
I've been feeling the difference here for awhile. Before we left on our trip, I was often in tears after coming here. And instead of coming in joyful anticipation (remember the days when we could hardly wait to log on in the mornings?!) I began to dread what I would find here...and began to withdraw from participating out of fear of yet again stepping on someone's sensitivities and/or getting bashed for voicing an opinion that dared to differ from someone else's. It just isn't the safe, supportive, encouraging, caring place it was, should and can be.

I'm here for the long haul, because I believe in this community and believe that the good and the caring will survive and thrive again. But it has been painful to watch people diminishing each other. And just too daunting and frightening for many of us who don't have the courage to put ourselves in the line of fire.

You're definitely not alone - I thought I was alone in thinking these things - I'm glad someone else has noticed.

You are not alone. I love this place, but have not found it a fun place to be lately. I have too much going on in life to hang out in a place that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Hopefully, now that the election is over, we can make peace with each other once again, and feel safe with expressing our opinions.

I miss my home away from home.

I have no intention of leaving - I know the goodness that I sought is still here.

So what to do? Maybe we can ALL avoid the political forum, and get back to basics, like posting about the positive things in this world or how we can make it more positive, instead of being so negative.

I think I will just totally stay out of any topic that is or becomes negative and try very hard to start new topics that are more helpful. Of course we can't be positive all the time; we all have our issues, but it's the arguing about things that is such a drag on this forum.

I love the 'sharing thoughts' we can have, WITHOUT constantly trying to prove our point is the only way to look at things. I'll think I'll go post somethine new now!

You are not alone

Mountain ash

These ten games that are regularly played out
You may recognize one, two or maybe all of them:

1. The Occupation game
In this games, your mark out your territory, such as putting your name on everything or grabbing intellectual leadership in a defined area. You then act vigorously to defend your territory, patrolling the borders and guarding the gates. A tiger response to attacks will put off other possible attackers. You can also spend time looking for other areas to occupy.

2. The Information-manipulation game
As a manager of information, you first hoard it (not sharing it), for example by gaining expertise in areas that may be of value in the future. You can also gain control of the gateways to that information. When you hold the keys, you can also bluff that you know more than you actually do. The key here is always to use information whilst giving away as little as possible. Information is power, and an information manipulator uses it in any and every way possible. If other people use information against you, you seek to discredit both the person and their information.

3. The Intimidation game
In this game, the objective never to fight by showing how dangerous you can be. Using such tools as sarcasm and cynicism can make you a feared opponent. You may well want to build your reputation as a dragon-slayer. Just a threat from you is enough to make most people back down.

4. The Powerful-alliances game
If you do not have power yourself, you can find it in other people. Wheedle you way into powerful circles, ingratiate yourself to the bosses. Build networks you can call on in times of need. This can even be done with nasty tricks such as blackmail and bribery.

5. The Invisible-wall game
Building invisible walls around your territory makes it difficult for people to find their way in and attack you. Mazes and false pathways help them to get lost, tired and dispirited. You can then be kind and show them the way out.

6. The Strategic-non-compliance game
When you cannot easily refuse, then the simple response is to say yes then to delay and diminish your delivery. Make excuses, do the wrong thing or become unavailable. You can even band together with others to say 'no' in a collaborative voice (this is what Trade Unions can do).

7. The Discredit game
When others have power, you can drain it away by discrediting them. You can find their dark secrets or even create them with seductive traps, then expose them - it's called 'entrapment'. Be careful to stay clean yourself, getting others to do your dirty work and using 'humour' and 'truth' to deflect pointed fingers.

8. The Shunning game
This is the classic game of ostracizing people, 'sending them to Coventry' or a host of other ways of casting them out socially. This is a severe punishment for social beings. It can also be done in small ways, such as avoiding eye contact or being 'unavailable'.

9. The Camouflage game
This game is about distracting and confusing them to keep them away from your position. It is like the Invisible Wall game but played at a greater distance, hiding yourself before they even come close.

10. The Filibuster game
This is the game played by politicians everywhere, as they grab the talking-stick and then keep talking until there is no time left for anyone else to say anything. It can be a fine delaying tactic if this is necessary.


The big question is what you can do about these games if you are on the receiving end.

Refuse to play the game: It takes two to tango, and if you (and others) won't play they may have to give up.

Name the game: Exposure, so everyone knows the game, is a great way of neutralizing tricksters.

Change the game: Taking control yourself allows you to reframe and redirect the energy of the situation.

Mountain ash

I agree. However, you accused me of the below without considering my thoughts or feelings – that it was a typo, and not knowing the person behind the words. I did not feel I needed an explanation – I see many typos or unexplained thoughts typed on these forums.

Actually, you attacked.

“Obama BinLiden? Why the rude terrorist reference? Honestly, that just comes across as hostile and seems very unnecessary in polite forum discussions.

You imply that Obama and/or Biden threw these people out onto the street. They had nothing to do with that.”

Calling the kettle black.

Sorry Mustang Gal, not going to bite.

Maybe I'm dense or something but I haven't seen any real bickering or maybe, just have ignored it, not sure.

It is sad to me when anyones feelings are hurt because they dared to give their opinion on a subject. Isn't that what free speech is about?

None of us could have changed one single thing regarding the election, especially now so why get our panties in a knot about it? Whatever happens is going to happen to us 'ALL,' no matter what our political affiliation's are.

Now, sometime back I did get an email asking me whats with all the snipping and evilness going on in the forum? My answer was "who cares," or something like that. Because I was in the dark as to their reference. So, okay I must be dense!!!

We should observe the overall spirit of online community learning and support when members need it. Perhaps if we just remember we are an online community (well, I haven't met any of you in person yet). The problem is whether this online community, is willing expand its dialogue to include more women who might have quite different life experiences.

We are grown women and should not feel overly constrained from even talking about certain, albeit highly-charged topics. I would hate to think this forum became a tea-party where we delicately talked around "sensitive" topics. That keeps us from learning of other people's perspectives and life experiences.

That said, learning within an Internet forum, can become abit insular also and limited without seeing non-verbal gestures of each other. So we have to go about our lives outside this forum and even disappear for awhile.

Chatty, I tend to agree with you. And Orchid, I also think this place would be boring if it were just a tea party..

A political discussion will always be about differences. If you join such a discussion, then we are old enough to realize that, and not take anything personally. At least I don’t.

I too have received emails from members that want to leave the forum, because they don’t care for such discussions. The big difference I see in this site, between now and, let’s say 6 months ago, is that people aren’t reacting to other threads as much.

For example, our poetry thread. Those that participate are having a ball, but those that don’t participate don’t even bother to make a single positive comment on all our efforts. I am surprised that Dotsie has never said anything. I mean there are some excellent poets among us!

To help maintain this forum, I think members have to participate in more threads. I know it is a time issue, but I spend 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the evening, and usually have hit on all the open threads. It’s a give and take participation.

Okay, and another thing that I am sure won’t be too popular amongst many of you, and that is; - I don’t care for the sales thread at all. I don’t think it should be part of a forum. We are bombarded enough with sales pitches the entire day from all other media. I get the impression that some of you are only here to sell, and aren’t interested in anything else. I think since the sales thread was added to the site, the participation has gone down in other threads.

Still, I send a virtual hug to my online friends. You are an important part of my daily life. And just like in real life, it is important to have a healthy balance of gripes, praises, sympathy, critique and humour to share with one another.

I contacted EW due to NOT the political discussions because she is someone I trust and certainly respect.

My concerns were how posters were being in my own words..less than respectful to others.

I have said being a UK citizen I could not discuss the election with any credibility not knowing enough to so so.I did feel I could learn from what women said and so read these discussions.

the economy concerns all...the world wide situation.

I am not here for a "tea party"
I hoped to share memories dreams and wishes with others and
enjoy frienship

I have long been involved locally and nationally in UK politics.
Worked hard to select and sent sucessful candidates to Parliament.
This week this has been achieved due to a by election...a good man will represent my area in The House of Commons.

The political becomes personal.. passionate and part of identity.
But the people I mix with are respectful to others such is our ethos.
Mountain ash

I think that's the answer too, Edelweiss. Some of our members choose not to wade into topics that are too emotionally-charged and some, like me, simply don't want to risk being slammed against the wall (it's happened and yes, it HAS hurt!) for merely voicing personal perspectives. That doesn't mean we want tea-parties (though we've had some hilarious tea-parties in the past, haven't we?), but some do prefer safer ground and sometimes would enjoy lighter conversations. But for the past while, "safe ground" just hasn't been an option, because most discussions have been centered around the election. Other threads and other topics have come - and gone - unnoticed. And some of the quieter members have slipped away - unnoticed - as well.

I'd like to invite those other "quiet voices" to come back and participate in other topics that are less emotionally charged. And while I think we all enjoy learning from each other and welcome all perspectives on all topics, I'd like to suggest that we leave the aggressive hostility of the election discussions there in those threads and re-establish safer ground for other discussions to take place.

From reading all these posts, it seems that everyone comes here for different reasons. Since the site has grown, there are more voices. Unfortunately, and fortunately, I think what we're feeling is growing pains.

As founder, I can't stay on top of it like I once did. I rarely go in the pet forum. I've hardly read any of the poems because I really can't take time to write poetry (I'm too busy putting out fires) while I'm here because I'm busy tending to other forums, and I believe the poetry forum is running itself.

I can only do so much. I've considered paying people to monitor forums, but quite honestly, everyone has a different opinion - would question posts, and then I'd be hearing from all the moderators too. Sorry, but I won't do that.

My best suggestion is that if there's a forum you don't like, then don't go there. In the past few months, I've heard women don't like the current event forum, the mental illness forum, recommended links, for sale, or the political forum. So, should I just get rid of all of them? I think not, because other people like them.

Just visit all the other uplifting forums. And if you like discussing politics or current events then post in those forums, but post kindly without attacks, remembering the site was launched to connect, encourage and support one another.

DD, thanks for starting this post. It's interesting to hear what everyone has to say.

Dotsie tries well to keep us going without intruding much. I'm grateful for her efforts.

I don't overspend my time here since I do participate in another women-based forum that does surprisingly include alot of women over 40 yrs. old....but it's exclusively on cycling. That forum is run by a woman who has her own business devoted to cycling wear and equipment for women. We rarely hear from her at all. She's probably way too busy dealing with her business ...all mail-order worldwide..since cycling wear for women and choice is problematic in some parts of the country, etc.

We have different topics. Most women there do not pitch their businesses (if they run businesses). There is a sales forum...more an open thread to post used cycling wear/equipment. Occasionally leads to stuff on ebay. Based on the threads that I did see recently on politics, there were alot of Democrat leaning women there. Many of these women do have children and hold down jobs also....plus cycle. Only a smaller handful seem to be grandmothers. However some don't even discuss their children hardly at all. They are on that forum for a particular reason.

Unlike this forum, I have already met several different women there face to face (from Seattle and Vancouver area). The group seems to draw more non-Americans also...meaning there is a higher percentage of non-U.S. participation.

I must admit that in this forum recently of people referring to information sources off of YouTube and other some (not all) alternative sources that I've never heard of....and would never consider as single source reliable if I had to submit a paper to be graded for a credit course.

Or pretend this way, if you were a judge to write a court ruling and reference sources, and that court decision was going to stay on record for the next 100 years (which most court cases do), would you reference that source as reliable evidence?

To me personally, it's been interesting just observing..levels of information literacy and how influential the Internet can be with the "grey"/shadow information sources.

I can't imagine being a grade school or high school teacher these days..

By the way, our personal experiences, are valid evidence. It's just useful to frame it within a much broader context at times after some time for personal reflection...which for a group of boomer women we've had ample time to reflect. That is our strongest advantage.

Thanks Orchid, and others, for your thoughts. I actually found this forum because I wanted to sell to Boomer women - back before I sold my online wicking sleepwear store. Once here, I found many friends and totally enjoyed the peacefulness and friendship I discovered.

It's true that people come to the forum for different reasons, and I come here to relax, visit with friends, offer support, etc. I normally try to stay out of political discussions (not just here, but everywhere), but I believe I was drawn in when I saw things like the bogus YouTube videos or other obviously false content and felt the need to defend my choice of candidates and tried to share reliable information. It was difficult with all the media slant, in both directions.

I'm also someone who doesn't enjoy arguing, so when I see what I perceive as arguing, I guess I think it's bad. But maybe some people thrive on that exchange of ideas, no matter how heated it gets. I'm not one of those people - I always tend to try to calm things down, which was the original reason for my post.

I must thank you DD for expressing your feelings..it allowed me to agree with you.

Mountain ash

Orchid,
I agree with your first post on this thread. I was not aware that some areas of the forum were not to be used and debate was discouraged when I came here.
I come here for intellecual stimulation and to make friends, yes, but also to learn from others differences.
I am a world traveler. I welcome differences of opinion given in a kind and informative way.
If this were a "Tea Party," it would not be a site for me. I can't imagine going through life avoiding the tough things to deal with. I want to feel alive in love and in thought!

I thought we did very well in an election as charged as this one was. I even think that those who did not agree with me did a great job trying to stay in the facts and sparring with good anture. I know I meant my sparring to be good natured.

Now that I am proud of this forum for being in 2008, some people don't like that?

To each his own, as we say and I will take it from here to see if it remains my type of forum.

Dotsie, I was considering joining your group after the political discussion because it allowed for such spirited debate.
Again, to each their own!

Dancer9

DD, I'm with you. I avoid confrontation, arguments, and negative communication at all costs. That's why it's often hard for me to weigh in on some of the political debates. I'd rather run the other way, and keep my opinion to myself.

orchid, thanks for sharing what your other forum is like. I find it interesting that the founder is hardly there. Does she have forum moderators?

dancer, typically, the tough things have been discussed, but they have been personal and others have offered and felt tremendous support.

Lately, and due to the election, tough topics were discussed, but they were debated because there was always an opposing opinion where people were trying to prove their point. This is very different from discussing a personal issue that isn't related to politics.

I think part of the problem (for some of us gentler folk) is that there always used to be room for both the tea parties and the spirited debates - and everything in-between. The problem some of us are struggling with now is that the spirited sparring has a louder voice that can (and does) easily dominate, squelch and drown out the gentler voices among us. A subtle-but-deadly hostility has begun leaking out of the sparring forums into some of the other threads where the non-sparring tea-party people enjoy connecting, encouraging and spending comfortable time with each other on a gentler level, without the combative sparring. Such pleasant chit-chat on a heart-to-heart level used to be the mainstay of this community in the past but has become almost impossible now. If sparring and spirited debate is the only facet that is now going to be nurtured and allowed full freedom here, then we WILL (it's already happening) lose the gentler voices that have brought so much life, wisdom and healing to this community.

I still think there's room for both, but those who enjoy and thrive on spirited sparring will have to respect the safer gentler ground that others try to create within other forums here and those who enjoy the gentler approach might want to steer clear of those hot topics.

Eagle, I agree. I will watch the forums (that really aren't for debating) very closely to make sure this debate and prove your point attitude doesn't prevail. Big sigh...

I like the use of "gentler" Eagle.
NEVER to be confused with being weak...indeed it is a
gift.Channeled the gentle person has endurance.

During times of troubles and worries having access to the forum was a blessing for me...special friendships were forged.
those ladies know who they are...Lola are you reading?

We all view dialogue from our own perspective and make conclusions based on our own life experience and intuition.

To be congregant and authentic is my journey and sparring I leave for those who are still undecided on their path..
For a time I thought all was lost for me here but now the topic has been aired...tell me friends..how do we go forward?
Mountain ash

I'll be honest - want that?
It's not the discussions that bother me. The more debatable the topic, the better I like it.
What I don't like is the one-upmanship which seemed to have raised its head. No matter what some of us had to say, it felt as if it was either cut down, put in a position to be disproved with antagonistic and out right "you don't know what to think, know where to read, or understand what truth is." Honestly, it was the approach that caused me to hurt, not the thoughts, ideas and interpretations of events.
Don't you agree a point can be made 'gentler' by adding a few words?
Example:
Subjective and harsh: All short fat women stink.
Still subjective, but 'gentler': It seems to me that all short women stink. or maybe, Doesn't it seem that all short women stink?
On several accounts, some of us were made to feel as if we were as if we were suppose to praise our oppositions' posts and accept them as indisputable. But, yet, besides the composition (high level as it might have been), holes could be shot through and throughout the posts' contents. Some of us didn't respond, trying to stop, or at least temper, some of the friction. Then after awhile, we'd come back to test the waters (so to speak) because we thought we had valid input, and lo and behold, it seemed to start up again.

There is no one [earthly] truth... I think we can all agree. We all have different truths.
As for my personal truths, you can try and re-color them if you'd like, but don't come at me as if your truth trumps mine.

DD, I so appreciate you starting this thread. It has been a long-time-needed. I was to a point of leaving... my voice constantly being challenged by a select few. I consider myself one of the low to no conflict members... but when I see another being fired at, I tend to want to step in front of the bullet. I can get firy, too... as well as the next, but it is most often after I've reached the adequately termed 'tipping point.'

There seems to be a piece of some of us that thrives on friction. I consider them much like my ADHD grandson. For his brain to stay calm, he has to be in the middle of chaos, so he starts it. His calm then feeds off of the chaos... it sounds strange, but his brain (with the release of the needed chemicals) then functions more calmly. It appears this might be happening with some contributors @ BWS.

As I've expressed to several of the gals, here, I love some of you like sisters. It's nice having sisters... esp. ones of good character and with loving hearts.

On the other forum, I checked out the different topic areas for us to choose...I could not find any specific people assigned to moderate.

Politics as a topic there, is kept to a minimum...the regular women participants will call out a stop, if the discussion gets overly hot. which is a GREAT contrast when I participated in a different, but co-ed Internet cycling forum for 3 years. Then I left because I got so tired of painted as a liberal ready to destroy the world's moral fibre..or whatever. Sparring with guys on that Internet forum, required a healthy dose of humour and distance...not to get overwrought or take things too personally.

There were times here where I felt compelled to say something because it felt so fundamentally wrong to me..ie. hand gun ownership (which is illegal in Canada and cannot be concealed even if you got a permit.) but because the majority of this forum are Americans..it's just tough for a significant vocal group to believe that life can go on without a gun when you live in areas where there are other people of whom the majority have no interest in hurting you (though some might steal, still that doesn't justify a gunshot). Compared to living in areas where there are polar bears, etc.

Sorry..am mixing hot topic here. (Now that I've said this much, does that surprise you when I've lived in drug-dealing areas of a major city?)

I don't expect Dotsie to solve problems when other forum members don't agree with me or if I feel hurt/ angered at the changes in forum tone. I'm not even sure it's worth my time to bother her with personal emails if the debates /topics get too hot. I just drop out of the forums for awhile.

It's not the occasional hurting that's the problem, though. The problem that some of us are trying to address in this thread is the ever-increasing undercurrent of antagonism and hostile-toned challenging of opinions and perspectives outside of the emotionally-charged topics such as politics. That DOES require attention and resolution if we want to keep the gentler voices here. I'm tired of being squashed, and I haven't been nearly as squashed or slammed as others who have gradually quietly slipped away because it's simply not safe for them to participate anymore.

There would not be such a problem if the sparring could be confined to select forums, but when the antagonistic challenging of personal perspectives leak out into other threads, it's just not a fun place to be anymore. I don't want to have to drop out of the forums...this is my home-away-from-home and has been for many years now. I'm committed and passionate about this community.

Let me reiterate that I believe that there's room for everyone, and for diversity of thought and discussion...the problem is that lately there has NOT been room for the gentler folk anywhere, even in the forums and threads that, by nature of the topics discussed, have tended in the past to be gentler in tone and approach. Some of us just want that safe space and freedom to be gentle without fear of being attacked, challenged and even ridiculed for wanting to be gentle!

I wish to post to Eagle Heart with whom I used to have a mutual "like," I believe.

Eagle heart, you are a sensitive woman with a voice that is heard, and should be heard. Your caring and gentle ways are something I respect and I wanted you to know.

At times I become spirited, yes, but I like to think I have a good heart in regard to how others feel.

I miss your posts, Eagle Heart and I'm sure that others do. You have a unique voice and one that, again, deserves to be heard. I feel badly that you feel you cannot post. There are times I am so sensitive that I cannot abide something touching my skin, those are times when my pain gets the better of me. There are also times when I am feeling, in my real life, very sad, or very sensitive and when those come, I don't post on the forum.

I do not post when those hard times come for me because of the reactions I have had when I've tried to explain my pain.

If you are feeling that way, I'm sorry. Again, I love your posts and you are a gentle and wise soul.

I hope you will post more and be yourself as you have in the past and were ONE voice that felt for me in my pain when I did open up and post. I will not forget your feedback and your gentle support.

Because you were there when I was truly out of sorts I always remember you as a kind woman, and again, wise in ways of the heart.

I wanted to address you, in open forum, Eagle Heart and say "thank you," for being you when you post.

Dancer

Thank you Dancer for your kind words.

I like to think that I bring something good to the table here. My passion for this community comes out of knowing all too well that I might not even be here (alive) had it not been for this place and these women. Who would I be without all of the wisdom, caring, kindness, prayer and light that so many women through the years have poured into my heart and soul? There is no way that anyone here can possibly imagine just how life-giving and life-changing BWS has been for me. I just want BWS to continue to be here for others who come here broken, wounded and lonely and in need of a safe place to gather, connect and evolve through the kind wisdom of this community of awesome women. We are so much more than our individual perspectives - we are so much more together than any of us can be alone - and we are so much more powerful together, united in our diversity and evolved through our collective wisdom, than any of us can possibly imagine. We have no idea of the ripple effect of our crossing paths and spending time here with each other. There is infinitely more going on - here and because of here - than any of us can comprehend.

I need to be here. I need other women to be here with me. Many of us need each other, in various capacities and for various reasons, even if only to feel needed. I love the person I've become through spending time here and I love how the wisdom that's been shared here has evolved and helped shape me into a wiser woman and a kinder human being.

We need BWS to continue to be a safe place for everyone who stumbles in here...this is a wonderful, powerful sanctuary for wise voices...it's no accident that we are here.

Eagle..there is alot to what you wrote. I think there should be space for heated debate..but it shouldn´t spill over..or take over..the forum.

My family..and therefore I myself, am going thru hell on earth and true pain right now..but I found no fertile soil to plant my tiny seeds of thought which would then, usually in the past, be watered and cared for by you ladies here..and give me comfort and direction and strength to go on and find my path toward the sunlight.

I have nothing against heated debates,..but I would like to be able to go some places here on the forum..and breathe freely..cry a little with my friends here and be uplifted by the wisdom and humor I know is here or simply just "talk" about my day or someone´else´s day..and share together.

I am not ALL that interested in politics.. (crazy right?..but true..too much else going on..and the election is over now)..but it´s ok with me if the subject is treated here and/or other controversial topics..just leave room for the rest of life,too. Life has so many facets..so VERY many facets!!! Let us be able to breathe..ponder together..ask for help, if we need to.. and allow this to fall on gentle, loving and compassionate ground sprinkled with some humor somewhere on the forum

Thank you for this thread..this was interesting..hopeful

Hugs!

Oh brother, this is something else! I was the moderator of a popular forum for a bunch of published authors, and their EGOS.

If you ladies want to hear/see nastiness, its there. I left as their moderator after six months because I realized there was no pleasing these authors, male or female. NO one agreed with anyone else. Each one was sure they were the expert, right and weren't afraid to say so in a very ignorant fashion. It was awful!!!

Then I'd come here, and this forum which I love is a walk in the park. We have some 'tea parties' yes! We also have serious threads and try helping one another. I feel comraderie here, friendship, support and yes, even love.

Each and every thread is here because someone needed it, yes the For Sale one as well. You would never have seen my afghans if not for that thread. I am very thankful for it.

I am ashamed of us all if all we can find here is fault! I feel that Dotsie at her own expense has given us a safe place to come and yet some aren't happy with that, and look to find fault...

I may make some of you mad, and I sincerely hope not because I haven't found one single person here now that I do not connect with in some way, "BUT" that said.....

LADIES GET A GRIP, IF YOU AREN'T HAPPY HERE, YOU CAN'T/WON'T BE HAPPY ANYWHERE.

Instead of deserting the forum like, well you know, stay and make it the forum you want it to be. Nothing can be solved if everyone cuts and runs as soon as their feeling are hurt.
Hell, I have been called every name in the book by some of the women who came here looking for trouble, but I stayed and held my ground, and where are they now, "GONE," no where to be found.

I am going to say some prayers tonight asking that our God of KINDNESS shine his light into each and everyone of our hearts.

I hope to see you all here in the future helping Dotsie and JJ make this forum the best it can be, this forum needs us all, it sincerely does!

HUGS!!!

I only wish I can meet some of you in person, one day since I know it's not realistic to expect to meet all of you regulars here.

Although it may be helpful to come to this forum as a sanctuary, hopefully we would also seek in person, solace and companionship with others in our non-virtual lives. For some, including myself, it's not that simple.

I just find this forum useful just to hang out several times a wk. ..like a virtual chick boomer cafe. To shoot the breeze. In real life, I wouldn't phone up any of my closest female friends and just chat about superficial stuff. My real friendships' time requires we focus on chatting key things in our lives because we don't see one another often.

And at work, I pretty well have given up trying to talk much socially with another employee. We know enough personal details about each other that there's no need for either of us to dig further. She's not interested in current events/news. I mean she doesn't read much of this stuff. We've exhausted the same superficial/pleasant topics. She works less than 3 ft. away from me at work, but her life is quite different from mine.

Hear hear, Chatty! I think you've said it best. People come here for all sorts of reasons. I believe I'm one of the oldest oldtimers still active on this site and have seen it mutate and evolve since Dotsie started it with hope and a prayer.

This internet community is based on visuals -- specifically words. Communicating well depends on our ability to express in writing, and to decipher someone's else's writing. Sometimes it seems like the most innocuous comment sets someone off. And plenty of times I've exposed extremely intimate life stories and thoughts only to have them ignored, taken lightly, or (worse) laughed at. That's part of the risk of going on line. We only know each other by who we say we are, we can't always vouch for the truth of it... and life goes on.

As far as feeling safe -- I know people who live in the country, feel secure, think everything's under control and are terrified to set foot in the city. And I have friends in New York City who freak out when they're in rural areas, so they avoid them at all costs. It may seem like an irony, but I personally have come to find the political forums the safest place on this site because the discussions are about ideas and I really don't have to deal with whether or not anyone understands my personal stuff. So Eagle, I have felt mistreated in what you might call the "gentle" places, but am okay discussing ideas with people who disagree. I can detach from ideas -- they are not me, they have not influenced the course of my life like traumas have. And that's why I so much focus on the politeness, which is Dotsie's concession for allowing that forum.

The fact is that the internet allows us to come into contact with people we might not meet in daily life. And chances are pretty great that those people won't behave or talk or think in ways we expect, or even ways we _like_. But as Chatty says, get a grip. I have been called names, too, and attacked in more passive aggressive ways. But I have also made friends here over the past 6 years and I come to hang out with them (to use Orchid's phrase).

I don't understand why a caring, thoughtful discussion of a problem that MANY of us are experiencing here deserves such hostility (get a grip???) This thread is trying to find peaceful resolution to a problem that simply should not be a problem - but is.

I'm not here just for myself, I'm here as a voice for MANY MANY others who want and need to be here but who have experienced serious bashing, either in the forum itself or through PM's. Why should we have to go elsewhere? This very thread is proof that we want to stay and fix the problem and continue to create the place that we want this to be. We all know what this place can be and has been. And nobody expects it to stay the same. Evolution is inevitable.

This thread is trying to address a serious problem that is beginning to undermine this community. Those of us who are concerned (because we love and care about ALL of the women who come here) shouldn't be attacked while trying to address the problem of being attacked! That's almost funny.

Aggressively flinging that line "get a grip" into the midst of this particular discussion is akin to a slap in the face - and pretty much what we're talking about.

Ok, I might as well come out of lurkdom and say what I think. I joined this board several months ago as Ell and pretty quickly left for exactly the reasons DD described. It's not the political forum, which understandably can get kind of testy during an election year. It's the other places, where someone seems quick to say that everyone else is wrong in that snappish tone. Yeah, it's here. And I'm far from a shrinking violet.

And the same lack of respect is here in this thread! Yeah, I said it. If a new person started a thread like DD did (I hope it's ok to use DD), I could see people giving her the brushoff. But I thought she was an established member of this community, as are all of you. If she sees a problem, frankly, I don't see where telling her to get a life or to get over it, that's the way we are, seems supportive. Just because others may not agree with her viewpoint or distress doesn't mean it's not serious to her or to others who agree with her. I know exactly what game that is: this must be your problem. It certainly isn't mine, so there must be something wrong with you.

And before anyone wonders if someone put me up to this, no. I manage to get in plenty of trouble on my own. I can only share my own impressions. *I* got the feeling I had stuck my foot in it even in forums that were nonpolitical. *I* got the feeling I wasn't giving the correct answer. Some of you don't come off nearly as nice and nonconfrontational as you might think, which can easily happen in a fairly small forum where people get used to each other.

You can smack me back into the bushes if you wish, but I'm just sayin'. Peace out, as the younger ones would say....Ell

MA asked, where do we go from here... I say we jump in the other forums and have fun, carry on, and get back to what we want to see happen.

Dotsie..hmmm..I hear you..but I think we may loose Eagleheart..maybe Anno..maybe me, I don´t know..because maybe there is a need for recognition for what they/we are saying..and a kind of reasurance that this is a safe place to reside??? I don´t know..just thinking aloud.

You know Chatty..in our "real worlds" we are forced to "get a grip" when perhaps inside we are loosing our grip and feeling quite desperate and frightened, etc etc. And we´ve been able to come here and dare to fall..because we often landed on soft ground..safe ground. God knows that I don´t go around doing or talking as I may do here sometimes.

I honestly didn´t realize that there were memebers old or new that have felt slighted by being ignored or "laughed at" when they open their hearts..

Yes..this can be a phase that this forum (which is us actually..all of us) is going thru, yet again..I haven´t been here that long..but have lived thru phases here,too. BUT I DO FEEL that it´s VERY IMPORTANT to support people like Eagleheart, MountainAsh and I guess, myself.. to allow us/them to speak until they feel they have been heard also..as completely and fully as we feel the need to be. Ugh..am I making any sense? There is nothing offensive being said here on this thread..it´s members thinking aloud about things they have felt for a greater period of time lately.

I don´t know..maybe "we" should start a thread of our own..but that´s not really the point..I think. I think we want to talk things thru..and, for example, react to you, Chatty..about "getting a grip"..not in any unfriendly way..but telling you how it feels when we read.."get a grip"..I guess one can call this a "discussion". You are a very clear thinking woman..so I value what you write..and like to be stimulated to thought by what you write..that´s why I am here..and many of us as well.

Yes a recognition of what has been shared .

its a long time since anyone advised me to get a grip..think it was when I was learning to ride my bicycle

Mountain ash

I wold love to answer each and every post in this forun, but honestly, this has come at a tough time for me because my family is around this weekend and I'm trying to spend time with them, and keep things sorted out here. I'm also steeped in a new service that begins in our church tonight that I've been invovled with planning, and am partly responsible for the outcome of the service.

I understand that some of us are upset, myself included, but I am doing my best to carry on and connect, encourage and support everyone in ALL the forums. I don't know what else I can do. I don't have time to read every post an decide every which way a post can be interpretted. It's impossible. All I can do is hope and pray that we get beyond this and carry on in the true spirit of BWS.

Indeed,
"Get a grip," is a harsh way of putting things. I don't know if you were referring to me when you spoke of leaving the forum. If you were, when I need a break, I will take one.

To DJ, as I had to say something to Eagle heart, I wanted to say to you that I have had my personal problems or "whining," met with disdain or by being ignored. I don't go there anymore as you don't. I'm not sure why some of us do not get the understanding we need when we are upset about something or truly find something a problem when others may think it is not, but we suffer that, some of us, that is.

I've given up, as you have, posting those things that are personally hurtful for fear of the responses you describe. I'm sorry but I was not here when you did post about personal feelings and I wish I was for I would have answered you to be sure.

Compassion in all things is my motto and being honest is oh so important to me.

My shrink, when I needed one and went through a whole lot of therapy said I was about "Beauty, Art, and Truth," and I think that just about says it.

I am interested in many intellectual subjects, but yes, I am sensitive to those who are suffering and am not ashamed of it.

Lastly, when I do post a hurtful thing to me, it DOES hurt me, as I'm sure your postings, DJ were about things that truly hurt you. That puts us in a vulnerable position for attack or passive aggressive attacks, ( as you said,) and I don't know about you, but when I am facing a hard as hell time, I don't need that!

Best,
Dancer9

I wasn't speaking to anyone in particular. Just an open statement! But I am amazed by the fact that some of you have chosen to dwell on only three little words I used in a 'lengthy' post, and 'ignore' the entire rest of my message.

I am shocked to say the least. Saying 'GET A GRIP' is NOT meant in a mean or disrespectful way especially when some here are dear friends to me and I have gone out of my way to be kind to them above and beyonfd this forum...

But when I see posts from some that are almost silly, not kind and even disrepectful, I will always say, get a grip, and by that I mean, our world as we know it is falling down around our ears and if we don't get a grip on it soon, we are going to possibly reach a point of no return.

Here in Casino (money) Land alone, 180,000 people have lost their jobs, and there are none to replace them.

We have a new president elect that 'NO ONE' really knows, nor what will happen under his watch. We can only wait and see.

Half the world hates us and wants to destroy us and what we stand for, and our sons and daughters are right now, in foreigh lands fighting and dying for our freedoms, and free speech is one of those freedoms.

Our friends and familys are getting older and dying around us, we are getting older and it may be our turn sooner rather than later.

So my dear, dear ladies if all you have to be concerned about are a FEW unsettling posts, than you really do need to GET A GRIP... NOT meant as a slap in the face to ANYONE either, just my way of sending a reminder that we have "far worse" things to worry about than a few ruffled feathers.

I hope we are not losing our humanity to replace it with selfishness. I have said my peace and you can all tell me off if you must, I do have big shoulders and many of you have learned when coming to me privately with a problem you want to talk about. Maybe all this time the love I felt has been all one-sided, me to you!

Personally and from my heart, I love you all, have for years now and that will never change no matter what is said or done.

One more thing, when out and about take a look around you, notice that people are shorter with one another, grumpier than usual? More road rage going on, and couples snapping at each other and the kids. NO hope for a new job or where are their unemployment benefits and why is it taking so long, and will their employer contest them? How will they live, pay the mortgage, eat, and God forbid someone gets sick. I have never seen anything like this and I am over 60, and scared as hell for myself and everyone else.

A friend from over the pond sent me an email yesterday telling me she had to watch a collegue from work that she ate lunch with everyday for ten years, pack up her desk as her job was discontinued because of the economy. Now the sender of the email didn't lose her job but was devasted for her friend. Do you see now what I mean by those apparently thought to be confrontational words, Get A Grip...Think about it, its sound advice!!!!!!!!!! I need a drink!

Maybe it's because the world is falling down all around us that we yearn for the sanctuary that this place - and being with each other - used to be...it's okay that we provide an oasis from the storm, if even only in a few forums where we can get away from it all for a few moments and talk about other stuff.

Can I just say that the reason I'm hanging in with this thread - and bearing the brunt of the repercussions - is because I'm receiving DOZENS of PM's and emails from women who have been seriously verbally battered here. If it were just a few ruffled feathers here and there, it would not warrant this discussion and I, being the wimp I admit to being, would not involve myself to the extent of putting myself in the line of fire like this. The concern and damage goes far beyond a few hurt feelings; my involvement in this thread is an UNselfish attempt to re-enkindle some measure of safe sanctuary somewhere within these cyber-halls for those women who need the support and caring encouragement that BWS has provided in the past. Again, all of this is an effort to honour, support and plead for Dotsie's vision of this place being a safe place for ALL women to connect, support and encourage one another.

Chatty, I for one will NEVER forget the kindness and love you have shown to me throughout the years - you know how richly you have touched and blessed my life and heart. You have one of the biggest kindest hearts I've ever known, and it still brings tears to my eyes to remember how kind and generous you were to my dying brother. I will always love you and treasure your friendship.

Chatty..you don´t get it..what I am trying to say. For goodness sake..you KNOW that I have alot going on..and JUST FOR THAT REASON I would like to be able to come here..I am hoping to be able to do so..

No ruffled feathers here..just want to come home to peace and quiet..to a supportive, caring, creative group of woman..or something to that effect..isn´t that the thought behind this place?

I don´t know..maybe it´s me that´s not getting it..that´s a real possiblility..

And you´re very correct in saying that there is soo much going on around us..or even within our families..but that´s the EXACT reason why I looong for something that is getting lost here..

But you´re right..that´s only me..and then there are the rest of all the women here that have their needs and thoughts..

And now I am going in circles..probably because it´s 1:30am here and I gotta work tomorrow...

I guess we all just have to make our own decision where we want to be or not..I mean that´s what life is all about it, isn´t? And sometimes we don´t even have the luxury of that choice either.

Good nite, then..from Sweden..signing out. Hej då!!!

You're a doll Humlan, and I understand perfectly about us all having our own problems to live with and sometimes its like a hell on earth...

I too come here to find comfort, strength and to hopefully be among those who care about me for whatever reason. Does anyone here think my life is a picnic, free from stress and sorrow and insanity, if so, you'd be oh so wrong!

Point: Remember when I posted a month or so ago that my ex, the one I HATE, showed up on my doorstep with one eye totally blood red, swollen and the other one not much better? He had suffered a stroke from what the doctor later said. Anyway he came crawling to me because he couldn't do for himself and has NO ONE, his family's all dead. So I took him in and cared for his needs. He was suppose to be leaving bag and baggage when his entire department at work was terminated, he's a collector and NO one is paying those old already written off bills. So now here he sits, watching TV all day, no money coming in yet, as his unemployment hasn't been approved yet, if ever.

So he is once again living off of me, eating my food, making messes for me to clean up and I am ready to commit suicide, or maybe murder, not knowing how long he will have to be here. I know I should throw him out, I wantr to so bsd but how do I do that? The guy he was sharing an apartment with moved back to Philadelphia and dropped all the jackass's things in my driveway.

We all have troubles above and beyond the worlds situation. I am speechless, and have about had it now with this "me, me" mindset, trying to explain something no one really wants to understand, so all of you just do whatever you want to do, stay, go, its not my problem, I no longer give a dam!!!!

Chatty..We live over the pond..as you know..and my partner´s place of work is now suffering the ugly head of "downsizing" and saving money. So his job is now not half as pleasant as it has been for the past few years..people will have to go..they will have to make do with less staff for all the children they care for each day..because there is, of course, no downsizing of the amount of children and work that the staff carries.

His close friend has already had to find another job..and there are more to come.Perhaps not my partner specifically..as just his qualifications are sorely needed here. But if the job load becomes too much..he may have to go anyway..and find something else to do.

Chatty..life on the outside affects us all..surely you realize that? We are all in this world together..for better for for worse. There is much anguish..and harsh behavior as a result of this..and we all feel this directly or indirectly. We can´t help but do that. So..where do we go to breath out or breathe at all??? I know..this is different for each and everyone of us..I know.

But, Chatty..there are some very beautiful things going on in this world of ours too..quiet small things..done in quiet and silence. Someone who gives you a pat on your shoulder..someone who asks you how you are because your eyes look tired..a child that runs up to you and gives you a hug good-by for the week-end because he has felt that you are sad..some music that brings tears to your eyes..tears that are mixed with sadess and a kind of joy. It´s all there,too, Chatty.

Ok..once again..signing off from Sweden at 2:10 am..Good nite. Hej då!!!

This is actually what the ladies (and I) were rightly offended by:


I won't sit here and now watch those same ladies be guilted into backing down from their feelings about your post. You deflected any blame for hurt feelings away from yourself with the "world is a mess" response, and then turned your next post into a "me-me-me" response.

There was discussion of feelings going on here, people being open and very vulnerable in expressing those feelings. It should not have been shut down in this way.

So Mij, do you speak for the rest of the women here?

Chatty has removed herself from this topic...have at it!

Chatty..did you delete your last post? Can´t find it now and as a result can´t find what I started writing as a reply..no great loss of my reply anyway

I would have never started in on "me" "me"..if I had found your post first.

But I do respect your senitments there..and I still give a damn. Because there is alot of beauty and kindness to find in this world of ours..on a tiny day to day scale..in quiet..in the silence of a special touch on your shoulder..a question of how are you, spoken by someone who sees how tired you are. Or a hug from a child because he has felt your sadness..and especially wants to say good-by for the week-nd, which he normally doesn´t do. Or some music that brings tears of sadness..but also of some sort of joy to your eyes..

It´s all there ,too, Chatty, don´t you think?

You yourself have been kind to me during difficult moments in a tangible way..your package with tabletts that can perk me up..

Ihope things work out for you..remember that he is a grown man..and can and should..pick up his own pieces..one way or another..I won´t expound..as the post is gone. Good luck, Chatty..it´s not always easy to draw the line..but sometimes it is needed for both parties..don´t you think?

Good nite again then for the 50th time ..from Sweden..signing off..no time info given this time Hej då, my friend..Good nite!


all my love,
humlan

I don´t want to have at it..at you or anyone else on this forum. I want you to come back..we need your clear and concise and sincere voice. You KNOW that!!!

I am muddling around my apartment, so I can probably go to bed and believe in some sleep for me. That´s a good thing!

over and out..from Sweden

Nope Humlan, I haven't deleted anything and won't either. I stand by every word I wrote. I am just tired now of beating a dead horse, so to speak! Sorry I got involved at all and tried
to be the voice of reason, won't make that mistake again...

Say lady I thought you had to get up early tomorrow, you are going to be soooo tired.

Just so its clear I am going nowhere unless asked to leave. I love it here and all of you, even the ones who disagree with me or what I say. It is free speech won by all the men and women who died to preserve it for us all. If I can, I will continue to try to enrich the lives of those here I love in whatever way I can. It makes me feel good to help. I came into this discussion because I was not aware of any problems and was surprised by the emails I was getting.

I am here more than most, depicted by my 13,725 posts. I was trying to defuse the situation and all I managed to do was worsen it and become the fall guy, AS USUAL!!! OH well, someome has to be it I guess. Considering what I am living with now, sorry but this is a cake walk for me ladies...

Eagle and others here, what I did and do is more pleasure for me than anyone else will ever know, but thanks for remembering it. Lordy, I need a cookie!!!

There is no reason why we cannot have "conversations" that promote altruisim and affirm our thoughts, ideas, beliefs, feelings, etc., and where not all are right nor wrong.

Yet, I know those who are quick to blame. Therefore, I agree if one were not to agree or appreciate a particular matter to either 1. ignore and don't visit that particular subject matter, or 2. if one does disagree and comment as such with honesty and personal fervor, then please do not attack them for having done so.

Also, one can simply "ignore" a user.

Don't judge someone unless you know your story.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matt. 7: 1). In verse 2-5 it is evident that v. 1 is referring to hypocritical judgment. The lesson is plain, you cannot judge another for his/her sin if you are guilty of the same sin.

I think airing out our complaints has brought us all closer together. It feels fresh and warm here now.

I thought again about my statement on the sales thread. Maybe that wasn’t quite right of me. I know many of you have sold here because of that thread. So just ignore little old me and my petty gripe. Don’t mean nuttin’ anyhow.

Do you all feel better too? I feel like we have just let the sunshine in!

Chatty with great respect and love

trying to disfuse a situation is fine in some instances but when several women feel there has been an issue that is of concern then perhaps it should be addressed.

I post again due to seeing that Humlan who has so much to content with posts so lovingly..
but the fact that a discussion trying to clear a situation gets more of the same old same old is disappointing .

you say if a person is not happy here then they wont be happy anywhere.
I disagree.
I have happiness in many areas of my life...and may be saddened should I loose contact with some of the others
but would see the process as experience and trust that the Universe will provide as it has in the past other
opportunities to engage in.
Mountain ash

I am at a loss for words. I missed a lot by not being here from three something yesterday until now. Is it fair to say that everyone has shared what's on their mind about the purpose for this forum? If you visit other forums at this very moment, you will see the purpose of BWS in full swing. I hope that's what we choose to do. I'm sorry some have been hurt by this post. The intention was to get us back to peaceful, thoughtful communicating. I hope that's what continues to take place in other topics.

This thread reminds me of something I learned through years of therapy...that introspection is crucial - to a point. But there always seems to come a time when the focus has to turn outward again, or I become too totally immersed in self and unable to see anything else clearly enough for that introspection to be of any value.

I think this thread has been crucial. But I'm wondering if it's had its moment and its say, and if we're getting to the point where we're just going to end up, as Chatty says, beating a dead horse. I think it's clear that most of us here (I'm basing it on all the PM's and emails I've been receiving over the past few days) want harmony, respect and that spirit of generous caring that so many of us give and receive and want to continue nurturing here. That never means having to give up one's opinions or perspectives or rights to be all that we are individually, but perhaps finding ways to discuss our diversity so that others can learn through the exchange instead of feeling attacked for believing what they believe.

I'm heartsick that people have been hurt here, particularly in this thread which set out to address the problem of people being hurt. And I'm sorry, not for participating, but for making anyone, particularly Chatty, feel attacked or unheard.

For me personally, I would also like to sign out of this thread and go back into the other forums and start "practising what I preach" by being the kind, caring listener for others that so many here have been for me. Kindness begets kindness...if enough of us practise kindness, respect and generosity of caring again, that's hopefully what BWS will become again.

Amen to that...I'm here for the long haul, I guess. I love you all too much! And besides, the holidays are on our doorsteps. Let's have fun, enjoy each other's company and carry on!

Thanks ladies. This post will be closed at the end of today.

Well, I just wanted to tell you all I was so upset by all of you being so upset, I made a dozen chocolate, fudge & nut cookies and ate them all with ice cold milk, so there!!! But I am paying the price today however as my jeans don't want to zip...Whoa is me! Love to you all and a huge HUG!

I like your cure all better, Chatty. I've been just eating antacids by the bottles full.

I also baked cookies yesterday, but gave most of them to Jon to take with him. I've had four between yesterday and todya, and they're currently calling my name.

LJ, I just bought my first bottle of antacids Saturday. So far, so good. I was afriad they'd taste like chalk, but they're actually pretty good.

_____________________Pssttt...

Once upon a time two friends, who lived on adjoining farms, fell into conflict. It was a serious rift after many years of farming side by side, sharing machinery, and trading labor and goods as needed without a hitch. The long collaboration fell apart, beginning with a small misunderstanding, which grew into a major difference, and finally it exploded into an exchange of bitter words.

One morning there was a knock on one of their doors and when it was opened, there stood a man with a carpenter’s toolbox. “I’m looking for a few days work” he said.

“Yes, I do have a job for you. Look across the creek at that farm. Last week there was a meadow between us and he took his bulldozer to the river levee and now there is a creek between us. Well, he may have done this to spite me, but I’ll do him one better. I want you to take the lumber by my barn and build me a fence, an 8-foot fence, so I won’t have to see his place, anymore.”

The carpenter said, “I think I understand the situation. Show me the nails and the post hole digger and I’ll do a job that pleases you.”

After the two collected all that was needed, the carpenter started to work, measuring, sawing, nailing, and hammering. While he was working, the farmer decided to go into town to run a day's worth of errands. About sunset, he returned to find that the carpenter had just finished the job. The farmer, his eyes wide open and his jaw dropped, found there was no fence at all. Instead, there stood a bridge - a bridge stretching from one side of the creek to the other! A fine piece of work handrails and all — and the neighbor was coming across, his hand outstretched.
“You are quite a fellow to build this bridge after all we’ve said and done.” The two stood at either end of the bridge, and then they met in the middle, taking each other’s hand. They turned in time to see the carpenter hoist his toolbox on his shoulder.

[“No, wait! Stay. I have other projects for you,”
“I’d love to,” the carpenter said, “but, I have many more bridges to build.”]

for the past 6 weeks, I've been working upwards of 70+ hours per week. I keep an open window on my computer for BWS but have hardly been here. I manage to do a quick blitz through 2 or 3 topics during lunch, and a few more late at night. I've responded briefly to a few posts but haven't had the luxury to say much in depth. To those of you who pm'ed me during this month, I've given whatever time I could.

To everyone else: my silence on this topic has been due neither to lack of interest nor lack of opinions, and certainly not from fear of confrontation.

Until 1 hour ago, I didn't know this topic was here.

Dancing Dolphin, thank you for bringing this into the open. Mountain Ash, thank you for your well-thought-out list of types of conflict and confrontation. Everyone else, thank you for your varying shades of input. I don't want to get into specific analysis of comments as Dotsie said this thread will be closed at the end of the day. However, the concerns of everyone are valid.

I will say: this has happened here before, in different ways. In life, as in BWS, individuals will come here with different agendas. Most are loving and supportive -- but some come to disrupt, some to gain power cliques, some to proselytize, some to sell, and some are just screwed up. Over the years, I've gotten more than a few emails from people who quit in disgust "because..."

In a public forum like this, there is no one clear way to keep out the negative element. We can debate them, we can ignore them -- sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes shades of gray become darker or lighter, and we can't see the process until it's fait accompli.

My sincerest love to all who weather the storm.

p.s. -- not for a split second do I think that my voice is in any way the ultimate answer to much of anything, BUT if anyone thinks that I should weigh in on a particular topic, just send an email or pm as I read those every day.

Regarding the importance of expressing views like the ones that started this thread, I have never understood posts like these to imply that this issue -- and I have seen it in various forms on other boards --was more important than anything else. This isn't a competition; people know that others are suffering or worried. It's just an issue that some people felt was important to discuss.

By this reasoning, no one should ever post anything personal or painful because there is always someone somewhere else who has it worse. Every single post would earn the 'well, that's not so bad; I know someone a lot worse off than you' rejoinder, which I can't imagine anyone really wants. That would shut down all discussion boards. We can't cure world hunger or cancer. Sometimes people have deep things to say, sometimes they have silly things to say, and sometimes they have different viewpoints. People can, though, discuss, debate, and engage each other with respect -- which was what I understood this to be about. No more and no less.

Thanks for all the responses. It looks like we're moving on.