If Hillary Clinton were to run for president would you vote for her?

I would. She's intelligent and capable of making good decisions. I suspect she helped her husband make many good decisions with his tenure in the White House.

NO! No one can tell what she believes in. I would vote for Condi, though.

Daisygirl

Daisygirl, interesting, why would you vote for Condi?

No to Hilary, yes to Condi.

Didn't she run the White House already?
No vote here.

I'd vote for Condi because she is one of the most brilliant, dignified, and honest people in politics. She has so much integrity. You never hear shrill screaming out of her, because she doesn't have to resort to that sort of behavior. She would be a president that would be respected the world over, well, except for the maniacs who want us dead.

Also, I agree with everything I've heard quoted from her.

Daisygirl

NO for Hillary.

NO to Hilary. YES to Condi!! Condi's smart and she's a LADY.

smile

Hilary is in everything for Hilary...

Condoleeza Rice would make an awesome President, for all the reasons Daisy mentioned. She is so much like Pres. Bush in that she would only do it for the good of the country, not for her own ego and glory.

While I do not disagree that Condi Rice is an intelligent lady she is also part of the Bush administration.

Hillary Clinton is a lawyer, author and senator with many more years of experience. I remember seeing her out in public after the Monica Lewinsky scandal and how she dealt with that in a dignified and ladylike manner.

Hillary Clinton was part of an administration that gave more Americans peace and prosperity. There were no unprovoked wars in which lies were used to justify it.

Yes, Bill Clinton did make terrible mistakes in his personal life but young men and women did not die because of it.

[ November 18, 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Clinton's lies may not have caused deaths (as you blame our President) but his LIES did effect young men and women and send the message to the ENTIRE country that its perfectly okay to lie, cheat on your spouse, and even make money doing it. I have NO respect for him, nor do I have any for his spouse.

I agree 100% that Hillary is for Hillary.

JJ

My son felt that President Clinton should have apologized to his wife in front of the American people. Those were his exact words.

Good for him Ladybug... that says a lot about your son and his values. How nice to hear this!

JJ

Thank you. It felt good to hear him say this because it was a subject we talked about over and over again. I'm hoping a lot of other young people felt this way as well. My daughter said it was also discussed in her history class and most of the kids there felt it was very wrong.

I had to edit this, used too many toos.

[ November 18, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Hey JawJaw, now that I've got ya revved up on this issue how 'bout coming out here and holding my hand when I get this ladybug tattoo in two more hours?

Good luck Ladybug. Get a pic and post so we can admire it, K.
I think Hillary is just a woman like myself, doing what she likes to do. It is a busy schedule for someone who never had to work another day in their life, if they chose to. I admire her for keeping her self together, publically after the ML scandal. President? Not sure on that one.
Condi? I like her, she is a dignified lady in my eyes. President? Not sure here either.

Bill Clinton? Just a man who got caught doing what some men do. Being president at the time, well, just wasn't good timing. But there is no good timing for such awful behaviour, I'd say. Many are enamored by his good looks and charm. Yes, they say he has it. I would turn him down in a heartbeat if he came looking for me. Not classy enough in my book.

chick

Oh my Lord! I must have missed that LB! Didn't realize you were getting one. Wow... nerves of steel you must have. You don't want the chicken lady (that would be ME) there beside ya! hahahah... I can tell you that. But I'm with Chick, get us a pic so we can admire the handiwork, k? Take care!

JJ

Condi is also a woman with much strength and courage. No matter what is said to her or about her, she handles it with class and grace. You never see her make personal attacks.

The same can be said for Pres. Bush. He doesn't get down in the mud either, although sometimes I think he waits too long to defend himself. The media pounds him so much, people actually believe things that are not true.

Daisygirl

[ November 18, 2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Daisygirl ]

I agree with you again, Daisy. I think our Pres. is a godly man, not driven by personal ambition. And he definitely lives his faith, he's not a hypocrite. I absolutely love Laura, too. She has brought class and integrity back to the position of First Lady.
He was very wise to choose Condi to be in his cabinet. She is a real woman, strong, yet feminine, full of godly character. I'd vote for her in a heartbeat.

No way would I vote for Hillary....now Condi's another matter...I don't think SHE'S ready to run for Prez but I am sure there are a lot of people out here who wish she would. Very savvy woman; sharp as a tack and very intelligent and well-spoken.

Bill Clinton ? as an 'outsider' i think he is probably the most sincere, caring, intelligent and knowledgable man of the century. (oops, i better duck eh) He and his wife were put through
what could only be called a meat grinder, but still came out intact and with dignity. I'd vote for him in a heartbeat (if i could)

[ November 18, 2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Yeah you better, Norma!!!

You are entitled to your opinion. In my opinion, the person you described is Pope John Paul II.
Now he would have made an awesome president!!!

With me it was more that he lied about it, and do you think Hilary's book would have gotten the publicity if it were written by you or me?

Sherri

My husband and I like to tell people that we moved out of NY because Bill and Hilary moved in.

not sure who your addressing Sher, i read her book, an excellent read. You are certainly correct in acknowledging that those who have been at the forefront of any national or international situation will get more publicity for a book then you or i .

She also wears the hottest shoes! Her fashion sense is supurb......very modest and tasteful, yet her clothes have an edge to them.

If I keep Asia, my foster dog (it looks that way) I'm going to rename her Condi in honor of Ms. Rice.

Daisygirl

Bluebird... now how could you say that's why you moved... remember that 'judge not business'.. (oops .. i'll duck again) wish i was smart enough to know how to send those happy faces...

Norma, that was just a joke!! Although we were very unhappy that she became one of our Senators.

The smileys are easy. To the left of the message box you type in, you'll see "Instant Graemlins" in blue. Click on that and you'll see a whole selection.

Hilary Clinton is the devils hand maiden. She is as dishonest as they come. I doubt the ones that would vote for her remember the Vince Foster affair, or the land deal where she did worse than Martha Stewart but lied her way out ot it, cheating many regular people who lost a ton of money due to that shifty deal but not her she made hundreds of thousands of dollars. Bill Clinton was without a doubt the worst President we ever had but he inherited the run off from all the good Ronald Reagan left behind and he was happy to take all the credit for it. Those two were nothing more than the Ted & Peg Bundy of the White House and God help us all if this witch ever gains any more power than she already has....Too bad Laura Bush doesn't run, now theres a real intelligent LADY. Condi Rice is okay as well. Lets hope Hilary just goes away, far far away....

P.S. It is said in higher circles of the literarry world that Peg oops I mean Hilary never put pen to paper, she used a ghost writer and then wouldn't give her the credit...sounds possible knowing her lack of character. Oh and Bill and Hilary put themselves through that meat grinder behaving like poor white trash with money....they defiled our White house.

[ November 18, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Well said!

I must say I am rather surprised that ole Hil is not more popular! This gives me hope for our country!

no no no noway would i vote for hillary.
something does not feel right about her. there is something either evil, selfish or just plain wrong about her. in others words SHE JUST AINT RIGHT!!!!!
lol
Condi i would maybe vote for.

To heck with Hilary and Condi too.

I'm voting for CHATTY!!

smile

No way. Not if she were the last candidate on the planet. She may be a nice woman, but her views are far, far too socialist for me. Think not? Check out her UN stance on how children should have the same rights as adults. And how some of the UN conventions should apply equally around the globe.

No thank you, I don't care *how* they do it in China, or Ethiopia, or Sudan, or the Baltic. I like the way things work just fine over here.

She is NOT a nice woman...

speakermom- i think i did see that movie years ago. i realy should rent it.
i looked at your profile and noticed you are connected with WBCL radio. im not far from them. they are great.

unique.. maybe you can enlighten me a bit, i'm a 'socialist' but maybe my interpretation of the word is wrong. To me, it means, certain things, for example clean water, hydro, roads, medical care, schools, need to be available for all where ever possible, and not only to those who can 'pay'. I also believe the business community is essential and should make a decent profit. But both businesses and governments have to work together, for the greatest good of all citizens. Are we far apart in this definition ?

Socialism is usually one step away from Communism. It means taking from people who earn more and giving it to people who don't earn as much.

Bluebird.. i know your joking now.

BB's definition of socialism is what I believe also. That's sort of the system they have in France and look at the mess they have there. When you take profits from people who work hard you take the incentive away for small businesses to start. That's one reason their unemployment rate is so high.

The U.S. is a capitalist society, and we do have roads, schools, medical care, food, etc. available to everyone. In addition, anyone, no matter who, can pull themselves up by the bootstraps and make a better life for themselves. Many people do it.

Daisygirl

Norma, I wasn't joking about the socialism thing.

I understand that some people think it is the government's job to help everyone because our fellow man may be too selfish to do it. That is not how life is supposed to be. We shouldn't force people to give away their money, time, resources. You see when something devastating happens, people naturally give to others.
Let me ask you this...suppose you have two nice vehicles that you bought with your hard earned money. Your neighbor doesn't have one. What if someone from your government knocked on your door and demanded you give one of yours to your neighbor? That's basically what welfare and other entitlements are. I'm not saying not to help people out temporarily to get them back on their feet. That's what these social programs started out as. But they have become a way of life for people and there hasn't been an incentive to get people off these programs.

[ November 19, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

so Blue, are you saying 'socialism' is a form of government that 'forces' people to give up money to help others ?

Daisy.. you said "In addition anyone no matter who, can pull themselves up by the bootstraps and make a better life for themselves, Many people do"

So, 'anyone', for example, the battered wife, those laid off when a company closes, those facing serious illness within their family etc. can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

I bet your heart says no, that is not always possible, certain government social programs are essential.

Well Norma, a Socialist government takes it out and calls it a tax. That's why I think our gov't has gone that way. Bush has been trying to cut our taxes. When people are less burdened with taxes, they tend to be more geneous in helping others, anyway. The gov't. wastes our money.
Gov't programs have become essential because the churches stopped doing many things to help others. Of course we need programs to help people who need it but it should be a temporary solution. And of course, if people treated each other properly, we wouldn't need so many of these programs.

I think a society should care for the mentally ill, physically ill, orphans and the elderly. Our govt. does provide for these people, although certainly some may fall through the cracks. We also have unemployment for those who lose their jobs. But it is up to me to make sure I have money put away for emergencies such as a job loss or illness and if I don't, I have to pay the consequences. I am responsible for myself plus I and my countrymen/women are responsible for people for the reasons stated above. However, I am not responsible for people who do not want to work or choose addiction as a way of life. When a society provides for people who are capable of providing for themselves, they will never even try.

Some leaders want the people to be dependent on them because that gives them the power and the votes. That's why some polititians like programs that allow people to take it easy.

Daisygirl

[ November 19, 2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Daisygirl ]

Thank you Bluebird, Daisy, Unique for your replies ... it would be best to say no more on this subject, but we do have many common beliefs.

I know some people will exploit, abuse, take advantage of 'safety net' programs. But by the same token i realize not all decisions made by business owners, goverment officials, judicial officials and religious officials are honest, ethical and just. I think the potential for good and evil is within many of us, regardless of the circumstances.

Unique, you mentioned the UN .. in grade 12,
i had the privilege of going to the UN with a group of other students. The trip sparked an ongoing interest in what happens there.

It ticks me off that certain countries have the gall to send representatives to the UN and expect the right to voice their opinion, raise objections, sign resolutions etc etc and vote, while at the same time denying their own citizens at home these rights.

For example, why should Saudi Arabia have a voice or vote in the UN when they don't give half their population the right to vote? Much less drive a car. I think UN membership should be limited to those nations who practice what they preach.

You mention isolationist policies Unique, i dont know what that really entails.....
Does it mean not getting drawn into the wars
and internal matters of other nations only
or does it include no ownership of primary resources in the land of others?

maybe we should close this subject, i dont want to offend.

All we have to do is look at what is going on in Paris and the surrounding area to see that certain programs just don't work. Let's pray it doesn't begin here.

Dianne, how is your sister who lives in Paris?

Hi there everyone,

Wow I just know now why I get along with all of you so much. I feel the same as the majority, I feel sorry for New Yorkers for having Hitlery, Ooops I mean Hillary as thier senator.

I have lived in two socialist countries and I have to say, I am so glad to be here. Yes, while there is a false sense of security of "being taken care of", there is also less freedom. No way, I like it here better.

As for the medicine, well, let me tell you what I experienced 10 years ago. I went to Athens to take care of my Grandmother while she was undergoing radiation for her bladder cancer. I am so grateful that I was able to go there. I had to do pretty much all the work. I am surprised the nurse didn't give me the syringe in order to give my Grandmother her shots. I had to buy the toilet paper, buy some towels, etc... There was one nurse that was kind enough to fluff her pillows, and take her temperature. I found out why when my Grandmother slipped her a couple of thousand drachmas (about $5.00). Oh and did I mention that all the nurses left after 6PM and the only other options you have for the night is, either you stay or hire a private nurse. Yea, I am glad I am here.

BTW, my aunt was unemployed last year and she needed major surgery. We have a charity hospital near us and that is where she had this done. This was free and amazingly enough, during President Bush's term. But of course, you will never hear of this type of thing in our media. You know, the media that thought Dollar Bill Ooops, I mean Bill Clinton was a god (small g) himself. So yes, we take care of our people here too that need it.

Glad to see all of you, I've been out of the loop for awhile, long story!

Cheers,
Cathi

[ November 20, 2005, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Optimumsteps ]

Just a small correction here. Chatty refers to Bill and Hillary as "poor white trash with money."

Actually, that's his background, not hers. Hillary was raised in Park Ridge, an upper-middle to upper class all white conservative suburb of Chicago, which thought it was liberal when Catholics were allowed to move in after John Kennedy was elected. When I graduated high school there in 1968, Jews, blacks, Asians et al were still prohibited from buying property in Park Ridge. I believe Hillary must have attended a private high school; otherwise she would've been at mine. He came from poverty but she came from privilege.

Not to speak for Chatty, but seems to me "White Trash" is not an economic situation, but an attitude. No matter how rich or poor either Bill and Hilary were or may be, they both qualify as white trash in my book.

History will show how they endangered, corrupted, and trashed our country.

smile

What really turned me off to Hillary was when Bush gave his speech right after 9/11 and her bored reaction while she sat in the audience. That did it for me.

As a media scholar, I'm interested in the fact that in this discussion people are blaming "the media" for the way they portray Bush but not for the portrayals of Hillary Clinton. If we don't know Ms. Clinton from media portrayals, then how in the world do we know anything about her?

Here's some information: Richard Mellon Scaife, the Pittsburgh billionare who funds conservative think tanks among other things, can't stand Democrats, especially if they're women. The conservative think tanks put on a united face so that they all say the same thing whenever interviewed or whenever commenting (the think tanks I'm referring to include the Heritage foundation, the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute and individuals who receive money from them include William Bennett, Elliott Abrams, Jack Kemp, lynn Cheney, Irving Cristol, Richard Perle. Journalists and news personalities who benefit from the think tank money include George Will, Michael Novak, Ann Coulter, Dinesh D'Sousa, Rush Limbaugh, and O'Reilly. Check out the facts. These are the folks who have been destroying the pursuit of objective journalism by encouraging partisanship, by killing the public service provisions of the original communications laws and turning "news" into entertainment. That's how it was practiced in the 1830s. Must we revert back to such unenlightened times?

The hatred in the country directed at Hillary Clinton seems out of proportion to anything she every actually did. Was it because of the chocolate chip cooky bake-off she had with Barbara Bush or what? I see it mostly as misogynistic.

p.s. Meredith -- I'm a Chicago girl too -- northern suburbs (on the lake).

Hi DJ.. your list includes many but not all of the PNAC group, but of course there couldn't be a connection ?? have a great day DJ

[ November 21, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

DJ, my opinion of Hilary is based on her portrayal of herself,not the media's portrayal of her. I agree with smile about the white trash being about their attitude. Remember what they did to the White House before they left? Pres. Bush calls it the People's house, which it is. How then did Bill and Hilary feel about the People?? and Dianne, I too, noticed Hil's reaction to our Pres.'s speech after 9/11. She has no respect for him or our country. BTW - can't wait to see you on Geraldo tonight!

1 reason people don't like Hilary is her attitude of arrogance that she shows on tv. Maybe her handlers should coach her better.

What woman in her right mind would take a louse like bill back after such public humiliation unless it was for power? I think she is slicker than Bill.

Daisygirl

You've all heard of the woman behind the man well look no further it was Hilary and she called the shots and this came from someone very close to the Bundys, oops meant the Clintons...she's bad news no mmatter how they try to convince us different...Just say "NO" when she runs for office or live to regret it....
Oh and thanks Smile you were exactly right about my white trash meaning...

Good God, maybe Hillary Clinton practiced certain christian teachings, and decided to 'forgive'..
maybe she didn't believe in kicking someone while they were down .... Whether she has 'respect' for the current President of the US i have no idea. But if 'appearances' is what we judge each other on now, heaven help us all.
"White trash" what kind of phrase is that anyway? What would Kenny Boy Lay of Enron be called ?
#$%#@$#!@!!@!@

That's absolutely right, Norma, she may have forgiven her in private after he apologized to her in private. That is their business.
White trash just means acting very low class, not money-wise. Did you ever hear that Bill and Hilary took things when they left the White House? Things that belonged to the White House and not to them? That's acting like white trash...

'very low class'? Sorry, i dont buy that phrase either, it's a put down to a large number of people. When have those at the top of any heap been free from all wrong doing ?? Accusations are one thing, and when hasn't there are plenty to go around ? In any situation? Are scooter libby, trent lott, definitely guilty because they have been accused ... is the bush family guilty of something because Saudi citizenships were allowed to leave the US after 9/11 when no one else was ???? I dont have a clue, but suspicions are not proof,

Oh and Norma how do the politicians in your country behave? Seems to me thats who you should be worrying about especially since you can't vote in the United States of America....Bluebird your definition of white trash is exactly correct....but guess you had to be there/here. Oh and good old boy Kenny of Enron is called an embarrassment, an abomination and thief of the worst caliber who lined his own pockets with the blood and sweat of the common man destroying their pensions/futures. With you being from Canada and all seems to me you have no horse in his race! With Kenny, Hilary and Bill the proof of their misdeeds slapped the American citizens right in the face and the pocket books, they weren't/aren't judged by appearances they were judged and found guilty by the cold hard facts of their acts....sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

If Hilary thought she could get more power and money in Canada, no doubt she would defect, just like she did to NYC.

chatty..of course we have politicians who have committed criminal action here, .... my point happened to be that if one is found guilty in a court of law that is one thing, but if accusations are made but remain just accusations that's another thing.

So you are saying the Clintons have been in a court of law and proven guilty of crimes. Well i must admit that is news.

It so happens that i believe, along with many people inside and outside your nation, that the world had probably the finest leader possible with your former president and his team . I wont apologize for that.

If your suggesting that as long as one cant vote in a certain nation, one shouldn't be aware and appreciative of what goes on there, we obviously disagree. Actions in one nation can have long term effects on other nations. As long as nations trade with each other, go to war against
each other, or with each other what happens in one place will always be of concern to both sides. Did i knock your current government?
I dont think so.

[ November 21, 2005, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

chatty said, "You've all heard of the woman behind the man well look no further it was Hilary and she called the shots and this came from someone very close to the Bundys, oops meant the Clintons...she's bad news no mmatter how they try to convince us different...Just say "NO" when she runs for office or live to regret it...."

i'm with you, here, chatty...i think i'd rather have all my teeth pulled without novacaine than go through another 4 years or 4 minutes of a clinton white house. bill and hilary were an embarassment to us all.

[ November 22, 2005, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: flipperjo ]

Other nations like the clintons because he didn't take a stand on anything and told people what they wanted to hear. As he was having a good time in the oval office, trouble was brewing that he could've possibly stopped.

Norma, I apologize and I must admit I'm really embarassed at how the fisticuffs flew on this subject. It's what sometimes happens when someone has a totally different opinion here.

To our valued Canadian neighbor, please don't let this dissuade you from posting here again.

[ November 22, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

I have been gone for a while recouperating from surgery. Am not sure I am ready to comment about all of this discussion.

I am surprised at the way we as women are tearing apart another woman, who stood by her man, and even though we might disagree with her politics, it is very unseemly to say things that have not been proven.

You all know I am a "liberal" and fully think the Clinton Administration was one of the highest caliber when dealing with America's problems. It was a time of unparalleled success for America. I can show you the facts.

Now, I was not happy either about Clinton's problems with ML, but again, what the man did in his personal life is of no concern of mine, just his and his wife's. He ran our country very well and made America a good place to live. Again, I can give you the facts.

As for Hilary for President. I am not sure if I'd want her, but am definitely sure I would not ever vote for Condi. She has sat up there with the rest of those in the administration telling the American people lies. So she is a definite no for me. I would love it for a woman to be president, but I don't think we have any ready yet. That pains me to say that because I truely believe that women can run things better than men. I think all of us would agree on that fact. Women are capable of feeling, caring, working on more than one thing at a time.

So, no matter what your politics are, I am surprised at the oneryness I saw in some posts. Discussion is one thing, calling others out about how they feel, whether they are citizens of the US or not is not very nice.

I value this board and thought the idea was for good, honest, open discussion with the idea that on many topics you must be able to agree to disagree on a topic.

Just my two cents worth for now.

Glad to be back,
Sandpiper

Thank you Sandpiper!

Can I add my two cents? What we saw Hillary do as far as forgiving Bill for the BJ's in the White House, was exactly what abused women do. They don't see a way out, the public (friends) is watching, and how in the world could she divorce the President of the U.S.? It couldn't happen. The woman did what she had to do but it doesn't necessarily mean she really forgave him.

I think she is one of the most intelligent women out there but I don't like her or trust her. I would never vote for her.

And how did I miss that she wore great shoes? Me!

She has lived a lot of years going through trials that could never remain private and she always did handle them with dignity. That's about all the credit I can give her.

Let's set aside all of our political aspirations of the Hilary's and the Condi's for just a moment and answer one question. You say what he did with his personal life in office AS PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. was HIS AND HILARY's business. I disagree. What he did/does whatever as the TOP political leader of this country is visible and should be. I'm not asking about other political leaders here, but Bill. Just Bill. The former President. But that isn't even my question.

By his cheating on his wife and getting caught, WHAT MESSAGE did Bill, AS PRESIDENT, send out to the youth of not only this country, but of the world? And you say this doesn't matter?

JJ

Amen sister! To quote my former boss: "The character of the kingdom eminates from the character of the king." Dr. Edwin Louis Cole, founder Christian Men's Network

Bill set an example that will be followed by the impressionable generation that was coming up during that time.

We will ALL continue to pay for his indiscretions in the future, as new leaders display the same gross negligence, amoral attitude and general disregard for anything sacred.

I would never vote for Hillary. She may have grace under pressure, but she sold her soul for power. Any woman (or man) that allows herself to be degraded publically by the indescretions of a cheating husband--all for the sake of gaining power is a very dangerous woman indeed. If she will sell herself, her self esteem and worth--what makes us think she wouldn't 'sell' America for a chance at even more power?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Not only did he disgrace the office, he lied to his nation about it. I could never trust him on anything he says or does, same with Hil and I too was thoroughly disgusted by the bored look she had on her face during President Bush's speech. That isn't the only time she's been caught on camera acting stupid.

Throw stones if you must, but I'm not sure if I would ever vote for a woman president period. Why? I am one! I know the ups and downs and the mood swings and the hormones. Heaven forbid if we put a menopausal woman in office with her finger on the red button...lol.

Lighten up everyone. I love you all.

Sherri

POLITICS, DEATH and TAXES things we can do nothing about....sad but true. Sorry Norma for losing my cool, didn't mean it to sound personal.

Chatty, I agree with you .

I was not going to say anything in this thread , but just had too. Personally I like Hilary Clinton . John Kennedy was a ladies man , also and so was his father. I would like to see a women president . Hilary is my age and proud of it. We all have that right on here to voice our opinions whether we agree to disagree. There much to say about Bush acting stupid .

anyone remember david and bathsheeba? david's indiscretions with bathsheeba effectively neutralized his ability to lead. his mistakes were carried into the next generation and eventually brought his reign to an end.

if you look at the story for its merits, whether you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible or not, even if you don't believe in the bible at all, there is a lesson there about the basics of leadership.

to effectively lead people and keep your credibility intact, you need to keep your own house tidy.

look at the people in your own life whose leadership and integrity you respect. are those people respected by their own families or are they deceitful with the most precious people in their lives?

i, for one, lose a lot of respect for a person who steps out on their spouse no matter how nice a person or what kind of position of leadership they may be in. it isn't simply a moral issue of whose bed they prefer. having an affair involves a multitude of sins - lying, cheating, making excuses, and cowardice to name a few.

i am not saying i expect superhuman perfection in people in leadership positions. i just find it difficult to believe and respect someone who is willing to betray the one person on earth that they have taken a specific vow to nurture and respect. if their loyalty does not extend to those closet to them, on what basis do i trust them not to deceive me, too?

as for hilary, i agree with starting over in the previous post - one more of the consequenses of bill's deceit.

no problem Chatty.... water under the bridge.

I believe someone said Bill Clinton had not been convicted of any crime and I thought he had so I researched and though he was aquitted by the U.S. congress, he was found guilty of contempt of court and perjury by the Arkansas Supreme court.

As a result of that guilty verdict, the Arkansas bar association disbarred him from practicing law in his home state for a period of time after he left the Whitehouse.

smile

I believe a person's past indescressions are relevent also. Proverbs 27:19 says As water reflects a face, so a man's heart reflects the man. To me, that verse means that a person's actions and words convey their true character. The personal life has everything to do with the public life and if he/she doesn't want it that way, they can avoid the scrutiny by staying out of politics.

[ November 23, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Daisygirl ]

So, if the character of the kingdom eminates from the character of the king, then I understand just why America is thought so badly of around the world. Look at what Bush had brought to our doorstep.

But lets step back here, first of all we do not have a kingdom and most assuredly a king. Our presidents are simply jut men. With all their foibles and problems. I don't think the youth of America decided just because Clinton's moral character was bad that they too can put morals aside. Moral values should be taught at home. I wouldn't trust anyone except my hubby and myself to teach my children moral values.

I also do not think that other countries around the globe give a feather what Clinton did sexually. He ran our country very well and achieved the best economic climate ever and we hadd respect around the world.(Something we do not have now)

As for Hillary, who are we to judge what she does with her marriage. I thought God was the only judge for us. I am surprised at how many on this board are so violent against this woman. You know, you don't know what you would do till it hits your doorstep. So, who are we to judge her for how she handled her marriage, be it public or private.

Come on, ladies. We are women here and discussion is good, but tearing up a person for how she felt she needed to handle a couple situation is unbelievable that this is going on with this thread.

It really does not matter who we are talking about, I thought most women would feel empathy for this lady who was in the public eye for her husbands transgressions. Whether she would make a great president is not what is being discussed. You all are putting all the other stuff in that has no bearing on if she'd be a good president or not.

Have any of you studied her record since she became a Senator (whether or not you like her)? Does not sound like it. Try looking at her record without bringing her husband into it. You might be surprised and find a very capable woman.

Again, just my two cents worth.
Sandpiper

It just dawned on me...we never looked down on Jackie Kennedy when she stayed with him through all of his affairs. Is it because she wasn't involved in politics on a business level?

That's true Dianne. Jackie had class but certainly not the level of intelligence Hillary Clinton has. No one looked down on her but then Kennedy's every transgression was never reported and brought out in public. Imagine the humiliation of having everyone know what your spouse did! I don't know Hillary personally so I am not in a position to berate her decision to stay with her husband. As someone wisely said before, she was the president's wife at the time, and she couldn't just leave.

Many strong women are called B-witches simply because they are strong.

May I again say that because I do not know Hillary personally I am in no position to assess her moral character.

Sandpiper, your views are similar to mine. We had peace and prosperity under Clinton. Both of my children thought his philandering was a disgrace and felt he should publicly apologize to Hillary in front of the American people. Morals are first taught in the home.

All of you have good points on this issue but as Sandpiper said, what Bill Clinton did does not determine whether or not Hillary would make a good president.

Hilary may be smart, but she lacks wisdom...much more important in my book.

Actually, we don't know that Jackie wasn't as intelligent....In that time women weren't asked, expected or perhaps even wanted to work or have an opinion. They were to stand by and support.

We don't know if she knew about his affairs--and in that time it was scandalous to forbidden to divorce as a Catholic. Jackie didn't have a choice. Hillary did. I go back to what I said earlier....I still think she sold herself--self esteem ect for the position.

Just my opinion...

I've no doubt Hillary had an agenda so to speak, in staying with Bill Clinton but it does not diminish her own capabilities.

According to several books I've read on the subject, Jacqueline Kennedy was well aware of her husbands affairs and purposely looked the other way. Whether these accounts are true or not is anyone's guess.

Hello peopleeeeee. Anytime you start a post on religion or politics, you are asking for it.

YOU WOMEN KNOW THIS. And now you are so surprised that tempers are rising? Puleaseeeee.

You know these are controversial subjects and we all come from different backgrounds and beliefs. There will be no winners here. REPEAT: THERE WILL BE NO WINNERS HERE IN THIS SECTION. Capish?

Why do you find it so unbelieveable that you are getting so many people with opinions that differ from your own? And I'm speaking in general terms, not to anyone, so put down that baseball bat.

Every one on this board is welcome to voice their own opinions, and they don't have to match. As a matter of fact, if they did, how boring would that be? But for Pete's sake, quit calling people out on their opinions and demanding that they give account just because YOUR candidate wasn't put in a favorable light. They DO NOT have to match what you think.

Comment, then leave others to do the same.

Now, everybody take off your gloves, go to your own corners, and let's take five.

JJ

I might add that Jackie Kennedy was very intelligent in many other areas not connected to politics.

She was not uneducated, quite the contrary. She studied in Paris at the Sorbonne and spoke French fluently. When it was time to renovate the White House she studied histories of the prior interior decorating and then went about restoring much of it to its former grandeur.

I think we can also give her credit for raising two well-grounded children considering the foibles of some of their own cousins.

I wonder if JFK, had he lived, would've been re-elected had his affairs been made public. I doubt it.

Hilary is no doubt a highly intelligent woman and I have heard that she has done her job well. I just would not vote for anyone who is so liberal. I believe in less government and she believes in more. I believe parents should raise their own children and she believes it takes a village. I believe in private health care and she believes in govt. run health care. I am pro-life and she is not.

Daisygirl

She was also responsible for planning President Kennedy's funeral.

She had it copied almost to exacting detail of President Lincoln's funeral.

Her own father "Black Jack" as he was nicknamed was a notorious philanderer and alcoholic. She felt she could understand Jack Kennedy's propensities for other women based on her own fathers indiscretions. She even viewed it as the natural thing men do. Whether this is true or not I don't think we can be sure of. These words are based on interviews with her closest friends.

Daisygirl, the public liked Jackie too much so I don't think he would've been re-elected. I wouldn't have voted for him either.

Well, it was a different time for certain.

JawJaw, I think it's okay this time. My bat's in the corner along with my broom. LOL!!!!!!!

i'm a little confused at all the talk about this thread getting offensive. i haven't seen any personal slams against members, only against polititians - most of whom have it coming. i am not personally offended if any of you have a different opinion from mine and voice it. i see the debate as healthy and invigorating. i think we (meaning people in general) are too quick to personalize opposing views and apologize for our own.

my dad loved a good debate. from him, i learned that you can argue till you turn blue as long as you don't hit below the belt and you walk away without a grudge. it is one of the things i miss most about him.

so, ladies, ring the bell and start another round!

I haven't seen anything against members either, Flipper. We do tend to have strong feelings about our political leaders in this country, that's for sure! I, too, love a good debate. I think we've all handled it very well.

I agree with JawJaw. Everytime a discussion starts with politics or religion, it is going to become a heated topic.

I never have nor will I ever disrespect anyone else's opinion as to what side they are on. Even President Reagan and Tip O'Neil would go out together for cocktails after the work day. I have heard once on a talk radio show that Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsberg are good friends. It is not unusual for them to socialize together with thier spouses.

Having said this, I still wouldn't vote for Hillary, but I would vote for Condi in a heartbeat.

For the record, I am a "Conservative Libertarian".

Happy Thanksgiving to all my "conservative" and "liberal" friends!

Cheers and God Bless,
Cathi

[ November 24, 2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Optimumsteps ]

Thanks Cathi, and all I was trying to say is "lets be mindful of others " because you and I both have been on this board long enough to KNOW that a few words misused, or a tad too heated, can lead to hurt feelings and people leaving...

Debates ARE healthy, and can be invigorating, no one is disputing this (no pun intended)... it was just a gentle, or maybe not so gentle reminder that we can and should be able to speak our minds, just don't demand that others explain their position if it is opposing your own.

That's all... and it was certainly NOT intended to spark another debate...

JJ

Thanks Cathi! I like you too.

And for the record, I'm probably a liberal libertarian.

as for hilllery..YES...i ADORE HER...my only answer..

I'll vote for anyone that is new. I am tired of the same people LOL.

I am tired of war.

Me too. "Fighting for Peace" is like "Screw*** for Virginity." ( I read this on a lighter once )
chick

I wouldn't vote to turn a fire hose on Hillary if her hair was on fire.

Hehehe...I might toast a marshmallow on it...

Now thats the ticket girls...I'd light that fire.

Oh, I thought her hair had already been burned. Huh, what? It's supposed to look like that?

I know, I'm bad. Don't attack me, Hillary fans.

You guys are bad. Really, really bad. But boy do y9ou ever know how to throw a marshmallow roast. Whooeee!

smile

Ah, and just imagine the hot air.
smile

"And now for the rest of you in the outside world who are reading this forum, after a brief message from our sponsors, we will hear from the atheists on why Ms. Hillary's hair is of vital concern to the stability of the world's people"

norma, this is becoming a bit bizarre isn't it?

Peace (piece)...hair piece! See, it fits right in.

aaahh .... i thought i was banned for a moment....
yes, my friend, that idea had occurred to me,
but i, probably like you, have noticed that there are no bald male politicians today ... not so when we were young...every old man over 40 was bald.... bald... bald.. well not my dad, he always had hair....but i mean the politicians... . Do you think that is because of Castro ? Now that fellow has hair !!

Today what politician is bald ?? Name one, or name about five....cant do it eh. ... well of course one never knows about some of those middle eastern guys, i think alot of them are bald... why would so many, but not all be wearing head coverings ?

Pardon me, Dianne...your sigline has really been bothering me, and I feel like the only proper response is to politely point out the spinach on your teeth.

The proper quote is:

Well-behaved women rarely make history. ~~Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.

Awkward moment, eh, but I can't let you just walk around with toilet paper on your shoe.

NMY

Well, put that toilet paper on your own shoe. It's from a baseball hat that I bought in Maine. And, I wasn't aware that our own, personal signature had to be something quoted by a famous person.

Norma, we had a politician in Ohio (now in prison) that had the absolute, most horrible hairpiece I've ever seen. He looked like a Chinese Crested Dog. However, when his mug shot came out on the local news, the hairpiece was gone.

Love you all.......Keep up the good humor. I just might catch it, and stop feeling sorry for myself.
Oh heck......it's just the weather. Me and my SADS!
Keep it up..........you all put a SMILE on my mug.
Lynne

Condi is an intellegent woman, but she sold out. She may have thoughts of her own, but we don't see them. She's a yes person to a person without a brain. Hilary on the other hand is her own person, while I don't agree with her on everything, I do know that she is smart, she is skilled and she can get this country out the current mess.

To wish harm on anyone, hair on fire or otherwise is not the higher way. All the great masters throughout time were peaceful, loving. Loving your neighbor as yourself with everyone being considered your neighboris the only way humanity, all living things will survive.

"Fighting for Peace" is like "Screw*** for Virginity." ( I read this on a lighter once ) - Chickadee, this was a slogan during the Vietnam war. Only the word most people used began with an f. It was true then, it is true now. Hurting anyone for any reason, with thoughts, deeds and/or actions, retards the progress of humanity rather than aiding it.

Right on Dianne ! The guy with the phoney hair was a criminal !! Which obviously indicates that those with hair sometimes astray, (like michael moore for example ) are not trying to hide something.... and therefore undoubtedly trustworthy...
Hello Ladybug, NMY and Lynne ... not to be depressed tonight Lynne...... it's just proven that hair is a matter of importance.....

The thing most puzzling to me norma was that on another forum there was so much talk of the love of Jesus, Christianity and our fellow man. This topic has become so opposite and may even show some hypocrisy. "Tis the season to be jolly?

Thank you Ladybug

Thanks Pattyann, I was beginning to think the playground monitor needed to come out to restore order here.

You may "stone" me now.

Then the hat was a knock-off of a famous quote. You can buy a sticker with the correct quote from the National Organization for Women:

http://www.now.org/cgi-bin/store/BS-WBW.html?id=J7VSykwi

NMY

Why would I do that?

Dianne I have always loved your quote!

Norma, he actually ran for office (again) from prison and if you can believe it, received 50,000 votes. Just too strange.

Dianne I love your quote too, and I think everyone is just having a little fun. Lighten up people, it's called "levity!"

Way to go Norma... you are giving as good as you get. And you too Dianne. You two are cracking me up with your responses. hahahah...after all, people have been making fun of politicans for a bazillion years. Why should we stop now? And yes, even my beloved President! I think you girls are fun...and I fail to see any hypocrisy here. Puleaseee... As I said, lighten up.

JJ

Okay JawJaw, point taken.

Thank you for being the voice of reason Jawjaw!

Hey,
I say to heck with that Laurel babe, Dianne's saying is better. And it's her own too because the Laurel Ulrich quote is actually "Well-behaved women "seldom" (not rarely) make history,"

And of course we all know how "rare" our Dianne is.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa. (Okay, that wasn't really that funny, but hey, it's still early)

smile

Thank you for clearing that up for us Smile!

The hair on fire comment was a JOKE!!! I would never wish harm on anyone, it was a JOKE!!! I don't like Hillary, but is was a JOKE!!!

Did I mention...it was a JOKE???

Rare? I like that. It's better than weird, ya know?

I think I've got it...it was a joke.

Well Dianne, technically you can be rare and weird....

And that, too, was a JOKE!!! ((HUGS))

I should have said "one can be rare and weird".

Like me.

Bluebird,
I forgot to tell you I worked as a Clinical SW at Broward General Hsp. in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. for the most part years ago. Also, in mental health in California, Illinois and Florida. As I said, I get around! Yes, I would vote for Hillary or Condolessa Rice.
Mattie123

Vi... thank you for speaking up, for what it's worth, i agree 100 percent. The lifes of thousands are now being destroyed or have been destroyed because of certain decisions made by those with power and out of harm's way. Whether the decisions taken were right or wrong is worth discussing, but maybe on a different thread.
(JJ... thanks for the pm, but to tell the truth, i was livid when i seen the discussion go to such a low ebb)... do i dare post this ? ... well i will anyway.......

Norma,
You may post anything you like. That is what this board is about. Just like the other women may choose to do.

The fact that they decided to use humor to diffuse a potentially harmful discussion which was going bad, is a tribute to them, and this board. I hate that you felt what some intended, and that was for you to be livid.

Did you really think that everyone was going to agree on this subject? Of course they weren't. And, as has been in the past in here, and will be so again, anytime you discuss politics or religion, you are going to have disagreements. You have your beliefs, and others have theirs.

No one holds the monopology on feelings around here, or holds the monopology on what's right, wrong, or held sacred. Some of these women making light of the situation have lost love ones to war, but yet, they still find the courage to move on, and yes, post some light bantering.

Before anybody post, think about this... what is your motivation? Is it to stir things up? Is it to really have a good old fashion debate? Is it to hurt someone's feelings, or draw people out? Or is it to push your own beliefs down someone else's throat (not saying you did or have)? What exactly IS your motivation? Ask yourself that question.

And if it is anything but out of friendship, sharing or caring, or just to inform, then don't do it.

If this makes you livid, then so be it.

JJ

When I originally posted this question I honestly thought it would stir up some good, intelligent debate. It has.

I truthfully had no idea so many people have such strong, negative feelings about Hillary Clinton.

How are we to know what is going to upset some folks and not others? Should we avoid all subjects of politics or religion? It would seem petty and dull to do so in my own opinion.

There are a lot more interesting things to discuss than politics. That's for sure!

Personally, I haven't seen one politian, Republican or Democrat that is 100% perfect. For us to get all upset defending any of them and arguing with our sisters over them is very silly in my humble opinion.

Dull? I never found BWS dull when we weren't fighting. Has anyone else?

There are plenty of political forums out there where people can discuss politics, my vote is that we don't need it in here. It only causes hard feelings.

JJ i also agree with your above posting... i should have said i was livid because some things seemed below the belt comments..... but i also could have been wrong in that thought..... i stand corrected......

[ December 01, 2005, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

No, BWS is never dull and I really enjoy a good debate.

There are no perfect politicians and whoever we do vote for will likely have some flaw or enact a law which some of us might find unfavorable.

It's the nature of politics.

I've always heard that if two or more people agree on everything, one is useless. So what if we disagree. At least none of us are useless.

And if we've reached a low ebb, at least it was in humor. And no one is making any personal attacks or anything... Well except on Hilary's hair. And shucks, if she really wants to protect her hair she oughtta' be on BWS with the rest of us.
She is a boomer isn't she?

You can't take politics or politicians seriously. It will drive you crazy. And for some of us that's a short trip.

smile

Ditto.....Ditto.......Ditto.....to everything that has been said!
Lynne

All well said and good points made by everyone.

Maybe the debate started getting a little out of hand when Hillary Clinton was called names.

I think up to that point it was good. We got over the name calling hurdle so now we must move on to brighter and lighter issues.

Anyone in favor of that say aye!

I want to continue calling Hillary names. hehe, just joking-LOL!

Daisygirl

It's okay Daisygirl, it's your right!

Hey, the names Hillary was called on here don't even begin to compare to some I've heard.

It's our own Dianne who got called "rare" and "Weird." I say we all vote for her. You know, the weird vote. It could change the color of the whole map to fushia or mauve.

I still just want my marshmallow.

smile

[ December 01, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Well, let's see......Dianne, have you ever inhaled?

Some folks say the fearless leader who said he had never "inhaled" had actually never "Exhaled."

Whooeeee!!! Dianne, you can DO this.

smile

My thought on most if not all Politicians is:

Make it idiot proof, and someone will make a better idiot!

Can we move on now to bigger and better subjects? LOL

Yes, I've inhaled. See, you can run for office and be honest. I can't imagine ANYONE EVER wanting to run for any office. It would terrify me!

Someone mentioned Hillary being called names. I believe I recall Bush being called the one with no brain. Sounds like an insult to me.

I think Hillary is and always will be touchy subject and we're all entitled to our thoughts on her. I have enjoyed the debate, bad jokes and all.

Here, here!!!!!!! Well said.

I wasn't livid. I was peacefully stating my opinion. It just seemed the discussion, however lightly intended, had gone into the toilet. But we are entitled to swim in the toilet if we want, and even consume it's contents. If Hilary runs I will vote for her. If Condi runs, I will not vote for her. Enough said. Politics is an ugly business. It brings out the worst in us all.

Actually, I love politics almost as much as I hate it. I love the ideal that our founding fathers set before us, but most days, when I hear the news, my heart just sinks.

I guess, being Democrat or Rebublican endows one with the inalienable right to criticize those in the other party. But the best part, it also gives them the right to make jokes about them.

Doncha' just love America.

sile

Daisygirl,

My heart sinks too when I hear the news. One thing I do, is to wrap the whole planet in love. I know this might sound hokey, but I don't know what else to do. I picture this love in the form of a white rose. I place the whole planet in the center of the rose and have the rose start infusing it and everyone and everything on it with love. It's a form of active prayer, I guess.

Say I just realized this: did my topic(this one) get more posts than any other in this forum? If Chatty is going for a record with her postings I could say I have a record for this topic I started.

Some people have said they would never vote for a woman for president because of the "hormone" issue. I am always surprised to hear this come out of another woman's mouth. Usually men are the ones saying this.

I don't think President Bush has a uterus nor have any of the other presidents who sent our men and women off to war.

I think a woman in the White House could hardly do worse than what we've already had.

Whether it be Hillary Clinton or Condoleeza Rice I think a gender change in the White House would be a good thing. Other cities have had women as mayors and they have served their constituents well so why not a woman in the White House?

Honestly, aren't most people believing that having Hillary in the White House will bring Bill back in...like he would be running the country again? I've always felt that way anyway. And, I'm not saying that would be a bad thing either, just wondering.

Ladybug, I also think it would be great to have a woman in the White House, as long as she's qualified (which goes for the men, too, of course). You've heard of that old saying "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world"? We women, even if we are not the majority in politics or business (though the numbers are going up), are the ones who really set the tone for our world. If the women in a society are moral and wise, the society does well. If the women become immmoral and foolish, the society goes down. I really believe we are the ones who make civilization, civil!! Who perpetuates most of the violence and hatred in our world? Men!

[ December 03, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

No to Hillary; Yes to Condi. I don't find anything Hillary says or writes, that impressive.
I read "Living History" by Hillary Rodham Cinton and was NOT awe-inspired. On the other hand, when Condi speaks, I listen.
brose

Before you jump on this, I know. I know. Hillary didn't write the darn book; many other writers, wrote it for her!

[ December 03, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: bonnierose333 ]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Bonnierose. Hillary does not inspire me...I think Condi could. Bill didn't inspire me either, but W does!

I did not read this entire thread but I bet it was interesting!

No to Hilary and yes for Condi. She is getting her feet very wet in her current position.

I read an article years ago when Bush first became Prez. It said he had 3 women that advised him personally. None held cabinet positions they just hads his ear. They were with him after 9/11 and influenced his speech to the public shortly after. Any man who has three women advising him personally, can't be all that bad!

Lynn

Oh IT was interesting!!! If you have an hour or two, go back and read it!!

About the hormone issue. Many men are on testosterone overload. Studies have been done on men in prison who have committed the most violent crimes. They found that those men had very high levels of testosterone. So what does that tell you about men and war....

Very good point, Vi!

Just checked out your website, Vi. I love your paintings!! Your website has so much on it and I don't have time to look at it all right now, but I will go back again.
BTW - I love having a face to go with the name. You are beautiful and do not look a day over 30. You must live very healthy.

Vi, I read that too about men in prison and high testosterone levels.

See why I think we could do no worse with a woman in the White House?

I absolutely would vote for Hillary Clinton. I assume we'd get "two for one" as we did when we elected Bill. I don't think she's the best candidate next time around, though. Too controversial. We want to WIN, remember?!!!

Not in a million years. For one thing, I lived in Little Rock, Arkansas during the governance of the Clintons, right after gov. Whit lost the election.
They (the Clintons) were in like flint with Reynolds Aluminum and Tyson chicken. They LET Tyson dump chicken poop into the Arkansas river and Reynolds aluminum dump waste into the Arkansas river, just because they were old dubs...
The White Water incident got swept under the rug much too quickly and with the deftness that Hollywood money can procure.
I don't believe for one minute that Hillary is the "goofey" geek that the news media tries to portray her as in her private life, using expletives such as "gosh" and "gee whiz". I think she is a coniving, devious snake who would lead this country down the final path to our destruction.
While I greatly admired Margaret Thatcher as a leader, Hillary seems to be a power hungry tigress who would rip a guy's balls off, just to get what she desires, which in my opinion is presidency. Achieving that would do several things for Ms. Clinton...she would get back at Bill, whose womanizing ways are widely known. She would at least gain his attention if not his grudging admiration. She would "show" all those bimbos who attended her husband. She would gain an adrenaline rush of power as first woman president and positioning with other gender world leaders.
I think she is VERY gender conscious which could compromise an already fragile equality between the sexes.
Last, I don't think she is qualified to run the most powerful country in the world.