Dotsie, that is too stupid. Even for a non-thinking ignorant person. I understand your point clearly, but really, "would he talk English" is just too stupid. I'm really worried...
When one woman asks another woman if she has children, and the woman says "no" the "no" it is a conversation stopper. I used to fill the pause after her question and my "no" with a personal explanation. Now I know I don't owe an explanation except if it's appropriate as in this forum in response to Di's thought provoking questions. I went back to college in my forties. People assumed that I had already raised, say 3 kids, and when I "got done" raising them I went back to college. It was a pet peeve of mine in college that woman would ask "how many children do you have" before asking "what is your major." I forgot to mention: When I was 15, my sister was born with Down syndrome. In the 1960s, my step-mother was told in the hospital that my little baby sister Heather should go immediately to an institution. But my step mother asked to hold her, just once, and of course she could not give up her child. Bringing Heather home was, well, not good. The neighborhood was aghast and cruel (such as pointing and whispering when she was being walked in the carriage) family was embarrassed. You know the story from TEARS. Anyway, at age 4 my step mother did put that child in an "institution." I was told never to speak of my sister again. Therein lies yet another reason not to have children. So was this choice a 15 year old can make? I don't know...I was just afraid of the family. Is fear a reason? I don't know. Did the insanity in the family take my choice re: children away? I don't know. I can imagine that wanting a child and not being able to in a way that one wants to would be akin to a loss and grief..but I'm just guessing away here.

Pamphlets and kits bear the "voices" of those who do not share my experience as a mother and grandmother. Some women are verbally forthright at first instance but, others cannot or would not and therefore, do not let their feelings known. And it is for those "some" that I would "listen" and welcome pamphlets and kits.

I think it is in our human nature to be spontaneous and statements made, which sometimes may appear as reckless abandon of the other person's feelings or circumstances, are part and parcel of that. Surely, if one would gauge sincerity, it ought to be from conduct that follows the seemingly reckless encounter.

This thread started a month after Gabriel was born. Now, it has come home. Gabriel passed away in April. He was my sister's only grandchild and I have a grandson who was born a month after Gabriel. The recent news is that my niece may never become a mother again because of the high risk of severe holoprosencephaly to any child she conceives. Holoprosencephaly was what Gabriel had. My niece's circumstances would follow "not by choice".

How has it been since Gabriel passed away and my niece's circumstances following that? Delicate. My children and grandchildren are central to who I am and everything that I do in life involves them. I do not know how to carry on a conversation with my sister and niece without drifting into my family life, especially these few months, where I am with the grandchildren four days a week. I can only pray and rely on the thought that my sister, niece and I know each other's hearts well enough to overcome comparisons and all that comes with it.

My Father was a Polish soldier during WW2.He and my Mother married then he died.I never knew him.I was intergrated well into my Mother family had many cousins and caring adults.
One person was W"sorry for the wee mite" when asked why she said that I would not understand English having a "foreigner" as a Father.
It goes to show that we should never overestimate anothers knowledge.
I embrace my difference...
Mountain ash

Princess, wow, what an way to have to carry on after your sister was placed in an institution. What did people think happened to her? I pray that wouldn't happen in today's society. In many ways, we've come a long way.

Lola, I can't imagine what a strain that puts on your relationship. I pray time heals that wound so you can eventually share your grandchildren with them. But how hard for now. I'm so sorry.

You don't have to answer here, but I'm wondering if your niece would consider adoption...

I remember going through four years of infertility, never knowing if we would get pregnant. It was a very emotional time. But once we made the decision to adopt, we knew we would never be childless. It was a tremendous relief for a couple who always dreamed of being a mom and dad, but lived in fear of the possibility of that dream never coming true. I just prayed for your niece. The poor girl has already suffered enough loss.

I have just returned from a day trip to the northern part of Sweden. The fields with their round bails of hay looked like something out of old paintings from harvest time. The trip took 6 hrs. all in all. So my head is heavy and still buzzing from the drone of our old Volvo. But I had to check this thread..thank you, Di, because it is SO IMPORTANT..as many say.

Dear dear fellow women and sisters.. so much devasting pain and so much honesty..I don´t think that I have ever met so much in one place. And I am filled with love and respect for you all. I sincerely mean this.

I have the greatest respect for you that have decided in one way or another not to have children. And I sometimes wonder if I should not have been so selfless as to think as you do. There is the reality of the future that doesn´t look very bright and hopeful, if I really take the time to take in what global warming and destruction means. But I often don´t take the time because I am too chicken to do it. Then I really have to SEE what is ahead and SEE the world that I have brought my children (and grandchildren) into. And then there are all the issues from my own life that I thought I could cope with and not spread to my children. Issues like my incest problems, my own need for love and acknowledgement..my fear of being left alone..my cultural problems..having been born in the Czech Rep., raised in the US and married and living in Sweden..etc. etc. There are some of you out there that decided to put a stop to your own issues and the picture of the future and DO something about it..take responsibility. And that decision..not to have children..has brought you pain and a shutting out by well meaning fools in our society. But you have decided to weather all that because you BELIEVE in your reasons and in yourselves. You are actively saying NO to a continuation of the problems..poison..in yourselves and our society. Yes, I have children and I would not erase any of them..could not. But some of them are battling with the problems I have bestowed upon them just by being their mother. And, so far, some of them are creating the same scenario for their children. My children fulfill me..but YOU have taken an active role in stopping what maybe inevitably comes and will come.

After reading what you all wrote, I am still wary of pamphlets and kits on how to react. Some of the reactions you have experienced have been very hurtful..very very hurtful..and stupid..yes. But they were not taught from a self help kit on how to react. They revealed alittle bit of the person who said them which gave you an indication of the sort of person you were dealing with. Can´t that be helpful in knowing who you want as a friend or not? I don´t know..Ignorance..yes, we are dealing with ignorance in some cases..but can others KNOW how it feels when your daughter takes her last breaths in a hospital room and the silence that follows? Can I expect true understanding of such moments from my fellow humans? I don´t think so. But perhaps I can acknowledge their attempts at trying to reach me in my sorrow..to let me know that they care and dare to show it? I don´t know..I don´t know..because all the experiences that I have had the honor of sharing on this forum tonite are so different..so very different. But I do hear and feel the pain.

I am continuing here as I am worried about losing what I write. It has happened before .

I don´t know why I am thinking that my reaction what you all wrote is so important..but I HAVE TO react because you all spoke to my heart..the innermost regions that I tuck away for safety´s sake. It will be 25 yrs ago on Aug.29th that my daughter Susan died..and I am sure that my body remebers alot more than I do consciously. So perhaps that is why I feel I must write to you. Take it for what it is..

Princess,I work with children like your sister, Heather. And I know how cruel people can be..family and the near community. I myself, as their teacher and day caretaker, can loose patience. The trust and love that these children give me is so great that I always drive home thinking what an awful person I am. How I fail them because I don´t understand what they are trying to say to me..to convey to me. I feel as tho they exist on a level that I have deep within me, being a human, but I have stifled it on my way by cultural norms. I can truely understand that you did not want to risk having a child that would have to go thru this again..

Lola, I have one daughter with 3 children..2 from one father and 1 from another father. Her last son was conceived despite a coil and and a condom. I have another daughter who has one child (9yrs old) and cannot conceive any more ecause her husband has sperm problems. She is married to a pastor and has a "organized" life or whatever you want to call it. These 2 women do not get along at all. My "organized" daughter lives in the US and visits maybe every other year. The 2 sisters always have very very hurtful verbal fights.It is usually my daughter with the 3 children that starts them. As a family, this causes alot of pain and sorrow as we love them both and think they are both great in their own way. My daughter with the 3 kids feels like a failure deep inside..eventho she isn´t at all. She is managing quite well despite all the odds. And my daugther from the States is asking herself: why? why? can´t I have more children. As you say..one can only hope that they both understand that we just LOVE them for the people that they are. And that we are yearning and hoping for them both..without comparing or judging in any way. You cannot compare grief..ever. Right?

Dotsie..is there an appropriate way to face another´s grief? NO. NO. NO. That´s what I mean by no pamphlets and kits..BUT I MAY BE WRONG here! By the fact that you are TRYING to be of help and consolation is enough. You DARE to call on the phone or Do something just by perjaps being there..visiting or something. There are SO MANY people that avoid contact because they are frightened by doing the wrong thing..saying the wrong thing..but often when you are in deepest grief, you don´t have the energy to call for help and you yourself don´t want to call someone on the phone just to talk because you know you will talk about the tremendous pain you feel..that consumes you..and who has the energy and time to listen to that? So you don´t call anyone..and are so grateful when someone calls you instead and asks: how are you doing? How are you getting thru your day?.. I`d like to just come over and have some coffee with you and talk..

It´s almost 1am. here in Sweden. But I am a night owl..thank you..all of you for sharing so much so deeply..and thank you especially..Di!

I am awed at the depth of discussion. You are all so wise and wonderful. All of us have experienced joy and sorrow. There is so much to respond to that I don't know where to start. Here is the last thing I wrote about my sister Heather; I think this applies to all of our hearts: ****“Love is never lost. Heather was here long enough to teach the lesson of unconditional love. The exchange of love experienced with her will never leave your heart.”****I forgot something else: when I thought I was pregnant at 38, I thought it was a now or never decision. After finding out that I was not, I had to go through a series of gynecological procedures. It was determined that I had had endometriosis festering for years. Furthermore, if I were to get pregnant, the chances of carrying to term were not very good. How painful would that be? I was glad to have this knowledge. Humlan, your comment about someone caring to call, daring to converse, is not way off. I think it is better to make an effort to care and console than to avoid and deny another's pain. Anne, I had the same fears as you in regards to the Cuban Missle Crisis, and our "duck and cover" excersises. My goodness, what what we learning? Indeed that there may be no future. Dotsie, Lola, Mountain, Di, and all of you, I am tearful and grateful that we are talking about this. L, PL

After our online "ministry" began, I had not realized that "childless not by choice" could also include the death of one. With my "tunnel vision" of my own situation, I did not "see" it. This is very sad indeed. I cannot stay I understand, but I'm sad for them nonetheless.

Regarding the "childles by choice or not by choice" question one poster posed, I see it this way. If one is saddened about not having children, it is NOT by choice. Others' opinion certainly differ, but that is my feeling.

As for my life today, daily I think/ponder about how my life will be. Not long ago, I received a copy of a "Family Tree" report my niece in the UK had to write. When I saw, with my own eyes, my "family branch" ended with me, it hit me hard! No legacy...nothing. I end, period! Oftentimes I feel like a nothing, no one. No one's mother, no ones grandmother. Just me. Yes, I am a wife of course, and a sister or daughter. But we all know women are "identified" today with how many offspring they have. I am a FUR MOM!!

No I am not depressed. I'm simply stating my thoughts and feelings on this subject matter.

As far as secondary infertility, I do not understand it. My first response would be "They at least have ONE!" But then, when I hear the replies to my situation such as "At least you don't have to (fill in the blank..there are many!), I get the heartache of a reply when ones does not think before they speak. (Dotsie, you hit that one on the head!!)

Regarding the pamphlets and brochures on how to respond to certain situations...if it is someone near and dear to me, I do research and learn HOW to be a friend to them thru their hardship. Right..we ALL go thru heartache.

As we know here on this board, it's crucial to hear "I've walked in your shoes. I get it!". For me, there are not words more healing! Been there, done that. My own family all have children. They are sad for me, yes. But they don't GET IT!

Then I think about getting older. Yep, just turned 50 with no health insurance. A DH who is getting older (57 now). Where will I go? Not sure, but have a God who promises to take care of me.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I truly appreciate the dialogging going on here. The truth be told: EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!!

I'm childress, not certain if by choice or by life circumstances. For instance, molested as a child and married an abuser (now divorced). I'm 41, and my children are my animals.

Mustang Gal...are you saddened by not having children? If so, it's not by choice. If not, then by choice.

That's the "rule of thumb" that we use on our site, basically.