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#84634 - 08/08/06 01:13 PM
Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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As ya'll know, I'm a co-founder of Childless Not By Choice. One part of our ministry is to educate others about how to respond to others (espcially woman) when YOU hear of their loss of a dream...bearing a child. And later on, grandchildren. But, before I go on, I'd like everyone's approval to do this. Through my years of educating, I've gotten many responses like, "Oh, i just don't know what to say'. or "Please tell me how". So, if you say it's ok,I'll begin my "class" on educating. Also, if you have any questions or comments, please post them which can help me answer specific concerns or questions. Thanks...i feel safe here to discuss this. 
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#84636 - 08/08/06 01:28 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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It's the ones who did not choose childlessness. It's a definite difference!!
It can be medical, or a spouse does not want to have more (some already have children from previous marriages), some "naturally' never had any etc.
Thanks for asking for clarification, jawjaw!
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#84637 - 08/08/06 01:31 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Also, if your children choose not to have children,then you would be "grandchildless not by choice". That would be a whole 'nother category! Or, it can be your children cannot bear children for many reasons,(as state in my post above) so you still are GNBC.
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#84638 - 08/08/06 02:01 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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Oh yes, Di, please do. It will be a tremendous help. I have friends whose daughters have chosen not to have children, for various reasons. Sometimes I forget how they must feel when I speak about my grandchildren.
_________________________
<><
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#84639 - 08/08/06 02:07 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 08/25/05
Posts: 1052
Loc: Ohio
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Di, I think grandchildlessness (is that a word?) would definitely be an issue. I know many people who for various reasons don't have grandchildren and would love to have one. That is a lost dream too.
_________________________
Laura
laurapoplin.com
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#84641 - 08/08/06 03:05 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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My very first suggestion would be this:
When you meet a woman for the very first time..DON'T ASK!
"Don't ask what?" you ask. Don't ask how many children they have. Of course, if you already know, then fine.
But that is one of the hardest questions we experience. We have to say "None".Even if we have step children, it is NOT the same! (side note: I have a friend who has both and she told me the other day that when others make such comments as 'oh, you're a step mom..you DO have kids',she says 'no way is it the same'".)
If, by chance, the conversation DOES go into the fact that a woman does/could not have children, do NOT:
ask why..This gets into someone's "bedroom" scene and is a very personal...too personal, in fact...question. Please don't go there.
offer ridiculous advice ie; "to 'use' a certain sex position; have dh wear boxer shorts; etc etc etc.
say "why don't you adopt?". Believe me..we have ALL thought of these things. And adoption must be an agreement between both husband/wife. Sometimes it's financial issues; sometimes one spouse does not WANT to adopt". Don't ask!
Make terrible comments like:
"You can have mine" (we are likely to ask you to begin drawing up the adoption papers!) I'm likely to say, "Do your kids know you do not want them? Even though it may be intended for "jest", we are very hurt and it does NOT help make things easier.
"Kids are not all they are cracked up to be". Oh? Do your kids know you say that about them? Shame on you!
"You're not missing much'. Same as above.
"They are so much work". ha! Can we trade?
Also, re; grandparenting. Same thing.
I was in a circle of much older ladies who were all sharing grandchildren photos. One asked me, "How many do yOU have?" "None", I replied, uncomfortably and sadly.
Do not assume that ALL women were able to bear a child! The numbers say that 10% of the US population of women are infertile. That means if you are at a luncheon with 10 women, one is likely to not have children, not by her choice.
Please, these really are personal, heart-wrenching comments and questions.
When you DO meet a new acquaintance, ask;
About her personally;
"Do you have family in the area?" That will open her up to share whatever she wants.
If you do know, for a fact,that a woman COULD not have kids, simply say 'I'm sorry for your loss". Period!
Also, even in the event of a miscarriage:
Do not say; oh, you can try again. WE must mourn the loss/death of this baby. Whether it was just a few weeks into gestation or further along. A sympathy card, flowers is appropriate. And it is NOT God's will for us to die. So, saying if it was for the best is WRONG! Then why are we feeling so forlorn and sad?
I know this is a bit wordy, but God has called me to educate the world, as much as I can, about 'our world' of CNBC'hood (Childless not by choice)
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#84642 - 08/08/06 03:12 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Conversations;
We in our peer group often wonder: Do women have a life outside their children/grandchildren?
I cannot tell you how many I, and many of my peers, have lost friends because women do not know how to hold conversations that do NOT include children. Granted,we realize that they are a huge part of your lives, but we long to have conversations with our dear friends without feeling like we stick out like sore thumbs.
Sadly we have nothing to offer. Granted, we are happy that you are happy. Remember; WE are extremely saddened by the fact that we cannot join in these conversations.
Please be considerate that not all the world had kids.
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#84643 - 08/08/06 03:14 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Sorry if I sound a bit strong here, but if you knew the life of a CNBC'er you'd understand how we have conversations about how others don't "get it".
Unless you've walked in someones moccasins.......
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#84645 - 08/08/06 03:44 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thank you for taking this so well, jj.
Again, we know people "mean well", but we feel many are so under-educated about how to repond, not only to our situations, but to many others as well.
There's a book entitled "How to Say It" by Rosalie Maggio. I purchased it after I looked in the index to see if she mentions how to respond to the CNBC'er. It did not,of course. So, I wrote to Rosalie and we are in communication for one of her future books.
Although she did do a great job about how to respond in the case of a miscarriage.
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#84648 - 08/08/06 04:21 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: chatty lady]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Great question, Chatty!
How about women's issues? Current crafts you are working on? job? Pets? Weather? Latest book you are reading? your house? Brother/sisters? Family life? Fashion?
Interestingly, a few years ago I had lunch with five other women who had no kids. And guess what? We sat there for 2 1/2 hours talking about all sorts of stuff!!
I have a sister who told me that when she goes out w/her friends, one decision they all have come to is that none of them talk about their kids.She says it's so refreshing. And she does that for me as well.We use Yahoo Instant messenger a lot!
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#84649 - 08/08/06 06:58 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 2560
Loc: Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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Di, I am not making light of the insensitive questions you are asked, but I thought it might be a little consolation that the ignorant people are not just targeting the chlildless! I have 8 kids and here are some of the things people say to me:
Were they all planned?
Do they have the same father?
So is this it? Or are you having more?
Haven't you figure out what's causing it yet?
The last question is asked as a joke, but I want to say to these people, is it really your concern? Are you feeding them?
People just don't know how to be polite and sensitive anymore. If I didn't know you, I might ask "do you have children", never "how many??" I can't imagine being that presumptous. After hearing the answer "no" I'd go on and ask other things in an effort to get to know you. Each person is pricelss and special all on their own, marital and parental status do not make the person worthy or unworthy.
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#84651 - 08/09/06 12:03 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Edelweiss]
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Member
Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 4876
Loc: Canada
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I never had children either, not by choice. All of my friends did. Back in the 80's when I was part of a committed Christian community, It used to really hurt when I would find out (after the fact) that the other women had all met together at some park or beach - and I was sitting at home in my empty apartment with no car, but nobody ever thought to invite me because they thought I wouldn't enjoy being around all of their kids and kid-talk. But they were wrong. I would have LOVED to have been invited. I would have loved to play with all of their children in the parks and the water. Being left out of their gatherings hurt me so much more than not having any children of my own.
Now that I have my own step-granddaughter, I have my own "bragging rights" and can jump right into those kid-talk conversations. But I still don't get invited to any parks or beaches - now it's my single women friends who don't invite me!
_________________________
When you don't like a thing, change it.
If you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
(Maya Angelou)
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#84653 - 08/09/06 01:37 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Edelweiss]
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Member
Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 4876
Loc: Canada
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Hannelore, you're so right about children missing out on having someone to take their side. My paternal grandmother died when I was very young, and my maternal grandparents lived too far away. Yet I adored them...thankfully, my maternal grandmother used to write me letters, many of which I still have today. Those letters kept us connected, and I'll always cherish that relationship...but it wasn't the same as having those two loving arms to cuddle me when nobody else could understand me.
That's what I try to be for my granddaughter - I'm almost ALWAYS on her side, and she knows it, and we've become kindred spirits.
Both hubby and I also try to be a positive presence in the lives of many of the children in our neighbourhood, many of whom don't have any extended family in this country. We often sit outside on the front step talking with them about their day and the troubles so many of them face in school (especially prejudice). It's sad to hear their stories (many have very painful backgrounds) but we try to encourage them and be on their side when we know that not many others are there for them.
Maybe that's one of the gifts a childless woman has to give to the world - it's precisely because I don't have any children of my own that I have the time and energy to give a listening presence and "on your side" comfort to other people's children who are feeling just as alone, misfitted and isolated as I have so often felt.
_________________________
When you don't like a thing, change it.
If you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
(Maya Angelou)
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#84655 - 08/09/06 10:36 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Eagle Heart]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Quote:
Maybe that's one of the gifts a childless woman has to give to the world - it's precisely because I don't have any children of my own that I have the time and energy to give a listening presence and "on your side" comfort to other people's children who are feeling just as alone, misfitted and isolated as I have so often felt.
You are right,Eagle! We do have the time.But also do feel left out. Maybe it's best that we don't know about our own child rearing. This way, our opinion is from a whole different side of life.
Interesting...today I was talking to a mother about how I think children should be today, complimenting on hers...how they seem to be good little girls with no "metal" sticking out their noses and lips!! She was listening very intensely. She then said, "And how many children do you have?" Of course, my heart sank. But I said, "None.I was not blessed with any". She made no comment but "oh, you don't have any?". PERIOD!
But gosh, I must have sounded like I knew what I was talking about!! LOL!!!
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#84657 - 08/10/06 11:33 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Edelweiss]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thank you for saying what you did, Hannelore! You have no idea how my peers (and myself) are dismissed with "HOw can YOU understand...you've never had kids'! Yes, we do hear that often! It's horrible. I wonder if your statement just comes with maturity,'cause young mothers think they DO know it all! LIke they've "arrived" since they have given birth. And yes, we CNBC'er do feel they've lost brain cells or the sense to communicate with their 'old friends' who have not given birth. Can't ya'll hold an adult conversation without talking about kids??? IT's a very hard road for us. We feel like 'freaks of nature', getting the ol' "one eye-lid up" look...like we hated kids and we did not want them! My goal is to educate that not ALL women have the pleasure of conceiving, feeling a baby (miracle) move within her, give birth and share that time with their loving husband. It's a dream that never goes away since the time we were all raised/programmed with 'First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes ______with the baby carriage"! As I was growing up, I never even was aware that there just may be a woman in the world who was CNBC. Not a CLUE,until it happened to me at age 36! We want others to NOT ASK personal questions; in our minds (and yes, they are very different and can be bitter), when one asks IF a woman has children, it gets "into our bedroom scene" and is very, very personal and can be hurtful. If someone wants to share about their blessings, great. But, please don't ask everyone you meet! It could be one of us sensitive ones. We just HATE that question anymore. It is not something we can 'get over'. For me, I'll forever be saddened by the fact that I was not able to experience 'it all'. Yes, I do have a full life, but i've had to MAKE it full FOR MYSELF ONLY. Sharing stories of a daughter's first boyfriend, prom, prom dress, engagement, shower, wedding, grandchild will never be in my life. I live all of this in my dreams..but it will never be a reality.  Try imagining not talking about your children/grandchildren AT ALL for two weeks straight. That is how our lives are. Yes, we are busy...but we don't LIKE it. And churches can be the worse place to be!. Some preachers have been known to say "you've never understood the true meaning of 'agape love' unless you've had children'. Or "God's highest calling is motherhood or fatherhood'. We do not attend church on Mother's or Father's Day, needless to say. We feel like strangers in a church setting as well. It's ALL about kids!! In fact, we'd love to start a church for oNLY those couples who were not blessed. Even single CNBC'ers have another set of issues,poor things. There are people out there,men and women, who decided to "change their minds' after they marry. Prior to marriage, they say "oh yes, i want to have children with you', when all they are doing is pacifying us. THEN, after the ring is on, they say 'Well, i don't want any (more, if they are already parents thru previous marriages). Talk about a sting!! Sorry, I need to get this stuff out to folks other than my peers since the "child-filled world" is what the Lord has placed on my heart to educate". My words are my inner thoughts. They are not meant to offend, but educate others about what we honestly think. That is why a 'place' of refuge is so needed so we can vent with people who feel the same.
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#84658 - 08/10/06 06:32 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Founder
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 23647
Loc: Maryland
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Di, thanks for starting this post. I need to hear all of this again, and the funny thing is that I've been on both sides of this fence...and then some.
We tried to conceive a child for four years, adopted two, then got pregnant. So I've heard the comments about not having kids, adopting from another country, and having a family with both adopted and birth children. I've heard some really ridiculous comments through the years and witnessed many odd stares especially when our children were little.
While walking a Florida beach holding my precious Korean daughter, aged 9 months (and I was seven months pregnant in a bathing suit) with my blonde, fair-haired husband holding hands with our two year old Korean son...we must have been the talk of the beach. A woman glared me down, followed be into the bathroom by the pool and asked if I was with my husband, and were they my kids, and were they REAL brother and sister, etc. I said yes to everything and she left totally confused.
I chalk it all up to ignorance. People don't think, and if they do, I don't think they intend to be rude, just curious. Things like this rarely happen to us these days, but if they do, I do my best to educate and not take offense.
Thanks for educating us and making us aware of our stupidity (at least mine).
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#84659 - 08/10/06 06:53 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thank you, Dotsie. I know you were there once.
If an "issue' does not fit into the 'pattern" of a 'normal' life, people have to say SOMETHING!! Or advise something.
A few verses I have found to be helpful to me are...
Job 6:24
“Teach me, and I will hold my tongue;Cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
Proverbs 21:23
23 He who guards his mouth and his tongue
keeps himself from calamity."
I know I am guilty of "letting my tongue go" in many other instances of life, so I am not without a calamitous tongue either! And I do my very best to be educated.
It's just that our lives are so "abnormally" different from mostly everyone elses. It can be difficult for others to understand, for instance, why we have five dogs! And a cat!
Or why we cannot attend baby showers and just "get over it"; attend children's birthday parties; sit in church as a newborn is dedicated to the Lord; observe what we call "baby worshipping"; ogle over someone's many grandchildren's photo albums etc etc. etc.
It all hurts deeply and forever. I cannot see myself acting happily that I am childless. i will NEVER get over the emptiness felt of never having bore a child, my own flesh and blood.
Even the bible says:
Proverbs 30, 15-16
15 "The leech has two daughters.
'Give! Give!' they cry.
"There are three things that are never satisfied,
four that never say, 'Enough!':
16 the grave, the barren womb,
land, which is never satisfied with water,
and fire, which never says, 'Enough!'
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#84661 - 08/11/06 01:53 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Edelweiss]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thank you,Hannelore (((HUG)))
When God brought Kimberly to me as a partner for the website, and my DH to help, Kimberly and I felt our newly-created God-inspired website was a "birthing"of sorts.
That website is not ours, but God's. He sees that it continues in order that we may minister to the down-trodden childless people of the world.
Yes, I know your words. But many situations still sting us all. Some have come out of the deep depressions; some are still in; some are working toward that goal. But we all know we have a place to go.
We are trying our best to fit into a society that is smothered with pregnany women. The sad thing is, even those who don't "plan' are pg....and then some!
It's very difficult for many to understand that God allows childlessness, but we know it is in His plan for our lives. We may not know the reason this side of heaven, but we do our best to believe that it is best.
Thank you to everyone who is reading my ponderings. I'm not here to complain or be bitter about what the world is around me. I am just sharing my inner-most feelings with the women of my generation. My desire is to tell you all that we exist, we have feelings, we are very, very different in a world of our own AND we are capable of loving...sometimes comes in the form of way more pets that you can imagine...but we do love well!!
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#84663 - 08/11/06 02:18 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: jawjaw]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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thank you, JJ. You're sweet to acknowledge what I am trying to do. The truth is we cannot identify with being a mother. We cannot identify with being a grandmother. It's similar to my thinking that everyones lOVES dogs or cats or whatever. Not the same, of course, but similar! I'm not complaining about my life. It's been and continues to be wonderful. However, often times I get "the stare" because I don't "know". For instance, some women just come up to me talking about breast feeding or grandchildren. I, too, give 'the stare' back 'cause I am clueless. Many assume we ALL can identify. I have to explain that I've never had children so i don't really understand what they are saying. That is when "the stare" happens! you all know what i mean..I know you do!
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#84665 - 08/11/06 06:41 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: chatty lady]
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Founder
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 23647
Loc: Maryland
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Di, your mention of the use of our tongues is one of my favorite subjects.
I read a great book, 30 Days To Taming Your Tongue, by Deborah Smith Pegues. I highly recommend it to everyone. You'll be amazed at all the different ways we use our tongue (and I don't mean french kissing, etc.).
Here are a few examples from the book:
The manipulating, divisive, argumentative, slandering, gossiping, belittling, know-it-all, harsh, tactless tongue.
Get the picture?
What are we really saying when we speak?
A little off subject, but still has to do with talking to women who are childless.
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#84666 - 08/11/06 06:51 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: chatty lady]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Excellent questions,Chatty! thank you for asking them...now I will reply. Yes, I've "missed" the conception, birth and delivery of my own flesh and blood. The "nurturing part" I have no problem with. I nurture all sorts of people...even when some don't want it!! LOL!! My own "flesh and blood" that can carry my traits, character flaws  , etc. It hit me one day when I received a lovely report that one of my nieces had to do on her family history. The last page contained our family tree...and mind ended. THAT was a hit of reality that caused the tears to flow as I was driving home one day. My siblings all have children so I know it's hard for them to truly understand that I feel like the outcast. Yes,I am very close to all three of them. And Dad as well. (Mom died 31 years ago) Thankfully, Dad never expressed any sadness that he does not have grandchildren from me. He loves me anyway!! By the way, that is a whole 'nother issue where parents have tried to make many CNBC'ers guilty for "not giving them grandchildren". However, I do understand the loss they feel,but when it is out of our hands,nothing we can do! Re: Adoption: It is something I personally feel that must be a "call from God" for both the husband and wife. It is not in my case, so adoption is not an option.I was never called to be an adoptive parent. Again, thanks so much for your questions.Do keep them coming. P.S. PM me regarding soap orders!
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#84667 - 08/11/06 06:53 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Quote:
Di, your mention of the use of our tongues is one of my favorite subjects.
I read a great book, 30 Days To Taming Your Tongue, by Deborah Smith Pegues. I highly recommend it to everyone. You'll be amazed at all the different ways we use our tongue (and I don't mean french kissing, etc.).
Here are a few examples from the book:
The manipulating, divisive, argumentative, slandering, gossiping, belittling, know-it-all, harsh, tactless tongue.
Get the picture?
What are we really saying when we speak?
A little off subject, but still has to do with talking to women who are childless.
Excellent Dotsie! thank you so much for this!! I'll look that book up..I need it badly!!
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#84669 - 08/20/06 06:19 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Here is one incident that most of you may not realize is so hurtful in the life of a CNBC'er, but this is my personal experience. Times like these are ones that really effect us, and probably unbeknownst to you all. If you have done similar, please think about the person who is in front of you. Unless you know them personally, they just may be a CNBC'er who is grieving....:sigh: Sigh ------------------------------------------------------------ A few weeks ago at the market, a lady stopped by and asked if I would do some rubber ducky soap baby shower favors for her daughter who is newly pg. Sure, I said. I loving doing them! (and to myself....I'm in business to make money!) Yesterday she introduced me to her newly-pg daughter...stands there...rubs her daughter's tummy in front of me and says "And she's going to have FIVE showers"! It's obvious she is excited about a new grandbaby... and rightly so! But, why does it hurt so? Of course I put on my "glued" happy face  to share in the excitement. I just hope they do not ask me THE question. I must bear down, ignore the "pregnancy god" and get through this.
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#84670 - 09/10/06 02:55 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: chatty lady]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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I know most of you are not reading this,but if you are...
another hard time we have is when we talk to a new mother. When they have been a friend for years and now conversations are limited. It's very difficult to talk without feeling like we are interrupting. It hurts many a CNBC'er.
If you have a baby in your arms and someone phones, would it be ok to for you to say "now is not a good time as i am feeding" etc. It's difficult at best to have a one-sided conversation when you know the other person is not listening.
IT's just time for us to meet new friends who either do not have children or they are grown and gone from the nest.
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#84672 - 09/10/06 01:09 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thanks Dotsie...no, no local group. i did try to start one years ago, but it attracted those who are still ttc.
I do feel that someone needs to be available to local hospitals for these type situations.yes, i can do it but no time.
I've often wanted to call the local head nurse on the OB/GYN floors, but there is just no time in the day for all i have to do! Maybe someday the Lord will grant me time to do that.
Sadly, no one was available when I had my hyst....just nurses for the medical needs. it's the emotional needs that are lacking. i also realize that dr's want us to heal physically first, i'm sure. But afterwards is when we could use help.
After 12 1/2 yrs post hyst., i'm really doing ok. I just have concerns for the newbies who just find out they need a hyst and will need that support from the beginning. it's an ongoing process that never ends, sadly enough.
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#84673 - 09/10/06 03:43 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Queen of Shoes
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 6123
Loc: Arizona
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Di, like Chatty, I never sit around and talk about my children unless asked. I also don't ask people if they have children. I did have a 70-year old friend who used to tell people that she and her husband had never had children but were still trying. I thought it was cute.
We never know. I went out with a man on a first date and asked if he had any children from his first marriage (I knew he had been married before but that's all). He said, "I did have children. My wife and son were killed in the airliner crash outside of Detroit a few years ago." I choked on my tongue but he said it was okay. How was I to know? Most people don't know that what they are saying or asking can cause pain.
_________________________
If it doesn't feel good, don't do it twice. www.eadv.netBoomer Queen of Shoes
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#84674 - 02/10/07 11:53 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3675
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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Quote:
Conversations;
We in our peer group often wonder: Do women have a life outside their children/grandchildren?
I cannot tell you how many I, and many of my peers, have lost friends because women do not know how to hold conversations that do NOT include children. Granted,we realize that they are a huge part of your lives, but we long to have conversations with our dear friends without feeling like we stick out like sore thumbs.
Sadly we have nothing to offer. Granted, we are happy that you are happy. Remember; WE are extremely saddened by the fact that we cannot join in these conversations.
Please be considerate that not all the world had kids.
I am a woman who chose early not to have children at all. I do not regret this decision at all, it fits my personality and life goals. However because of society's still annoying expectation that a healthy woman should have a child or 2, even women like myself, start doubting themselves, despite the reality (I stress a reality), that they don't have maternal feelings..to raise children.
So it makes me different from you, Di.
I'm not impressed by women who want to become grandmothers. This is unfair to any younger woman who chooses to be childless. It is selfish to yearn to be a grandmother since the event is dependent on someone else becoming pregnant. I'm sorry. A younger woman deserves to define her future properly that develops the best of herself in a healthy way and enables her to give the best of herself to society at large.
As for socializing with women who have children, so far, it hasn't been a problem. Most mothers I socialize with, do wnat to talk about other stuff outside of children. Some of them want to socialize with me, I know, so that we CAN talk about work-related stuff, travel and learn from each other.
There are some mothers with grown adult children, who I wish would just pull themselves out of their young children-raising days and realize their adult children no longer need them...and that they are now free to develop their own interests/skills. But maybe it's just scary to venture to the big wide world.
I feel sad for women who have lost children to death, at a young age. It must be hard to outlive your own children.
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#84675 - 02/11/07 12:43 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3675
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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Quote:
You have no idea how my peers (and myself) are dismissed with "HOw can YOU understand...you've never had kids'!
Yes, we do hear that often! It's horrible.
I wonder if your statement just comes with maturity,'cause young mothers think they DO know it all! LIke they've "arrived" since they have given birth. And yes, we CNBC'er do feel they've lost brain cells or the sense to communicate with their 'old friends' who have not given birth. Can't ya'll hold an adult conversation without talking about kids???
IT's a very hard road for us. We feel like 'freaks of nature', getting the ol' "one eye-lid up" look...like we hated kids and we did not want them!
My goal is to educate that not ALL women have the pleasure of conceiving, feeling a baby (miracle) move within her, give birth and share that time with their loving husband.
It's a dream that never goes away since the time we were all raised/programmed with 'First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes ______with the baby carriage"!
As I was growing up, I never even was aware that there just may be a woman in the world who was CNBC. Not a CLUE,until it happened to me at age 36!
We want others to NOT ASK personal questions; in our minds (and yes, they are very different and can be bitter), when one asks IF a woman has children, it gets "into our bedroom scene" and is very, very personal and can be hurtful. If someone wants to share about their blessings, great. But, please don't ask everyone you meet! It could be one of us sensitive ones. We just HATE that question anymore.
It is not something we can 'get over'. For me, I'll forever be saddened by the fact that I was not able to experience 'it all'. Yes, I do have a full life, but i've had to MAKE it full FOR MYSELF ONLY.
Sharing stories of a daughter's first boyfriend, prom, prom dress, engagement, shower, wedding, grandchild will never be in my life. I live all of this in my dreams..but it will never be a reality.
Try imagining not talking about your children/grandchildren AT ALL for two weeks straight. That is how our lives are. Yes, we are busy...but we don't LIKE it.
And churches can be the worse place to be!. Some preachers have been known to say "you've never understood the true meaning of 'agape love' unless you've had children'. Or "God's highest calling is motherhood or fatherhood'. We do not attend church on Mother's or Father's Day, needless to say. We feel like strangers in a church setting as well. It's ALL about kids!! In fact, we'd love to start a church for oNLY those couples who were not blessed. Even single CNBC'ers have another set of issues,poor things.
Di, I really hope that you have another passion that has nothing to do with feeling childless or whatever.
I guess when mothers talk about childrearing or when a kid starts up a tantrum when I visit or look after them....for me...it's deja vu. It brings up memories of me, the eldest child who had to look after the little siblings. Not the same thing, but still it's up close exposure to little children and seeing stresses on parents. THe youngest is 10 years younger than I am, so I have strong memories of being babysitter at least once each day, singing lullabyes or lying down so that baby sister could nap in afternoon. Or helping mother wash children in bathtub. List goes on, since my parents couldn't afford to pay external babysitters.
It might have killed any warm fuzzy maternal instincts. Oh well.
So then, I went through a time where I couldn't loosen up to enage in goo-gaga talk with babies and little munchkins. Until nieces and nephews come along. 
So occasionally I joke with my partner (who is 64): "Let's make a baby so we can see what s/he looks like". Now this is the last thing he wants, he already has 2 well-adjusted, adult children that are independent.
But really I don't need a baby to satisfy my curiosity, if I want to see what the end result of Asian and German blue-eyed union. I just look at a niece and nephew,products of a sister and her blue-eyed, husband. The children have medium brown hair and not surprisingly, dark brown eyes... 
There is no need for me to educate anyone about how treat me better because I'm childless. If they knew what life was like for me growing up, they understand a smidgen why I made the choice that I did ....happily.
Peace be with you, Di.
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#84677 - 02/11/07 01:37 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3675
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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Quote:
orchid, I appreciate your point of view. I especially enjoyed reading what you have to say about women who need to get a life outside of their grown children. I was always so grateful for my mom and dad because after I married, I never felt pressure to be or act a certain way for them. They always enjoyed our company when we were around, but never put pressure on us to do things with them or visit a certain night of the week, etc. I hope to set that same example for my grown children.
Oh, and two of my chldren are Asian, so one day if they marry a caucasian, I may get to see what their children look like.
Yea, guess you have to see how future unfolds for your 2 adopted kids.  Which reminds me of a different topic, I will post elsewhere later today or tomorrow.
As for mothers with grown children who need to get a life outside of children... I was a little amazed when an employee in my dept. said that she doesn't travel because she's been busy.
Well, I guess..with grown children??? I said to her: "But you have a car". She doesn't even drive into Vancouver. She lives about 20 kms. out in the suburbs. It's strange for me to hear this, when I don't have a car but have travelled.
We live in a beautiful part of Canada here on the Pacific coast. She's born in British Columbia, lived in Vancouver for 25 years of her life, but has not visited any of the Gulf islands (only 2 hr. ferry ride away) , etc.
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#84679 - 02/17/07 03:40 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: meredithbead]
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3675
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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Well for women who choose to be housebound (and no longer have young children), hopefully they are expanding their horizons in other ways. Travel of course , isn't everything. but if the woman is well-educated, college/university in a way, she is equipped with skills/motivation to learn about the world...already her curiosity was piqued before she had children.
When other women engage in talk about their children's accomplishments, well, in all honesty I don't feel hurt not being able to join in this intimate experience.
I just tell them I'm a proud aunt of a niece who is finishing her final year of geophysical engineering and is contemplating her master's. Her brother was a competitive swimmer at reigonal level....training 40 laps in pool at 5:00 am every morning... Then there's the aggressive little niece of another family who will wrestle down hard her 2 older brothers...
I am happy to observe frome the sidelines and cheer along.
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#84680 - 02/17/07 03:44 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: orchid]
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 2930
Loc: Belfast/Northern Ireland
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hi just been reading throw this thread di admitedly for the first time....
i can relate to a lot of what your saying and felt emotional reading throw the posts around a lot of the points you weer making. I didn't have a biological child untill i was 35 or 36, multiple miscariges, never carrieing past 3 mounths.
Having lucien now, for whatever reason, some change or luck or just by chance i managed full term. I rember chatting the issue over with another tutor she couldn't have kids at the time and i still hadent had lucien. I had given up all hope of trying again at the time becouse the rise and dashing of hope was so painfull. we were having a private chatt just swapping situasions she said and i belive it to be true that in some way for her she hadent ever managed to become pregnant so had no focus to greve over...At lest i had my miscarriges. Not a good sitasion for either of us but it cought me up short...The outcome was the same (no child) but somehow i agree that her "type" of situasion and pain was in some respects more difficult, to negosiate in the world.
Choice is such a freeing thing...you can choise to do or not to do....When that choice is taken from you or you descover you never had it in the first place it's hartbraken. Maybee its the powerlessness, having no say thats an equley painfull process or situasion than the long term reality of not having a child.
In some respect when my partner had a child it would have been enough for me if that was as far as it had ever whent for me. I considered him to be equilly mine......One diffrence now in having a biological child, as much as that last child was mine, their is a diffrence. In how my other relatives view and treat him...Well at lest when he was first born. They did include him more and treat him as "proper" family compairring who he looked like etc.
For me now the main diffrence between the kids having had both experiences is the carrieing or pregnancy bit...after that it really dose stop with me.....apart from i always have him as a responcibility which can't be removed from me so i got more security.
thanks for posting about this di, i enjoyed reading the post and the bit of educasion i got even if i know and rember that experinces from the inside..
i am sorry for your loss and i am sorrie it still and probebly will pain you for the rest of your time heer. Despit still having a full and productive life
god bless ya di and all you do
celtic
_________________________
"Our attitude either gets in the way or creates a way," Sam Glenn
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#84681 - 08/23/07 10:55 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: celtic_flame]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Thanks for the previous honest posts. These discussions help me to place some pre-conceived ideas into perspective.
As a continuation of this thread...
Not long ago, a friend of mine made the comment about being "fertile myrtle". Now I am curious as to why women who have had babies consider fertility as a "badge of honor". In all honesty, that statement made me feel very inferior to her. It also makes me feel "left out" of the fertile world and not a "real woman".
In my opinion, fertility is not what we achieve, but what our body does or does not do.
Would anyone care to shed some light on this??
Edited by Di (08/23/07 11:11 PM)
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#84682 - 08/24/07 12:09 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 4434
Loc: Minneapolis Minnesota
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Di, I think a "Fertile Myrtle" is neither a compliment or a dis. It's a biological statement.
My sister could get pregnant at the drop of a hat, er...I mean sp***. She was pregnant all the time, but only carried one child full term. I, have never been pregnant. Both by choice and by accident.
I, mostly, chose to not have children. You know the t-shirt that states, "Oops, I forgot to have children"? It's kinda me. I never wanted children, biologically or emotionally, and it just never happened.
I did adopt a grandchild, however. And I am in the teaching field. If you want to be around children, it's possible. It's not the same as HAVING children, I know, but it is rather nice having only the fun part.
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#84683 - 08/24/07 12:46 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Anno]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 3503
Loc: Colorado
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Di, I have not read this whole thread, but I will pick up at your post of 8/23. Maybe I put this in the earlier part of this thread, or maybe I was just thinking about this topic. What this is: ***By the time I thought I was emotionally mature enough to have children, it was biologically too late.*** I have never been pregnant, as Anno reveals, both by choice and by accident. At age 15 I declared I would never have children, and the aunts, cousins, step-mother who was gathered at that table that day, said, "Of course you will." I did not know it at the time, but in retrospect I think I did not want to bring another child into my screwed up family. Once, at age 38, for the first time I thought I might be, and my h and I actually got excited. I agree that fertility is a biological phenomena, and not an achievement. And, I don't think that having children defines us as women. I don't feel inferior. It is what it is.
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#84684 - 08/24/07 01:09 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Princess Lenora]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Sadly many women "brag" about their fertility. At least it comes across as bragging to me.
It's just another one of those sensitive comments that could "turn the gut" of one whose body just "never worked normally".
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#84685 - 08/24/07 07:29 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Member
Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
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Dear Di, I've noticed that you have posted repeatedly about this topic, and despite many ladies who have tried to show their understanding and give you comfort, your hurt can't seem to stop. Have you ever tried to find professional help? I don't mean this in a derogatory way. I just feel that no matter how we try to explain or try to comfort you, it doesn't ease your pain, your feeling of loss and even resentment.
To resent someone is to fall under the illusion that they are the cause of our suffering.
I would have loved to have more children, but I don't resent any mother who has had this privilege. Now that my children are adults, I also enjoy finding myself again. This joy is as large as motherhood. After all, your life is all about you; your childhood, your growing up, and now your adulthood. There are many stages within yourself to discover. It's the joy of life within itself.
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#84687 - 08/24/07 11:27 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Member
Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
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It may be a cultural difference Di. but when I meet people as I have at work who are childless I just dont feel the need to ask them about their situation.I also dont mention my own children until asked.Likewise when people ask what my children "do" say school achievment or academic attainment I dont like when they say "you must be proud of them"I would be proud of any child doing their best.My friend who has a dughter with a sydrome feels no less than I do.The girl just has different needs.
I realised long ago that peoples souls are important.When I see an old person I think on the child they were and the love that surrounded them.I feel empathy.
In fact I admire my children because they did study and achieve but I suported them in what they wanted to do.They didn't do it for me or their Daddy.
Like Hanelore I mean no hurt I only offer my perspective.
Mountain ash
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#84688 - 08/24/07 02:31 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Mountain Ash]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Oh believe me, Hannelore! The best counsel I receive is my message board. The need to feel "understood" is a biggy with those who are childless, not by choice. (CNBC)
If you refer back to my original subject title, it's about "educating" those of us who ARE CNBC. With a world FULL of children, mothers, grandmothers I feel called to do this educating. And I also know that most women want to learn to be sensitive to others' situations. Some not, of course. But all in all, this thread is about education.
In my situation, I am doing great! Granted, I have my down days as well. Just as a mother who is estranged from children would.
Jesus is the best Counselor!!
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#84689 - 08/24/07 02:34 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Mountain Ash]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Quote:
It may be a cultural difference Di. but when I meet people as I have at work who are childless I just dont feel the need to ask them about their situation.I also dont mention my own children until asked.
That is very good, MA! If one is infertile, it is very difficult to talk about. We should be genuinely interested in the PERSON, and not what they produce. We come into this world alone, as the saying goes.
I, too, do not ask about children. Eventually, the subject comes up. But being a CNBC'er, I know HOW to reply if someone else is! If they are a mother, I know how to reply as well. I am blessed!
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#84690 - 08/24/07 02:50 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Mountain Ash]
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Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
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I am mother the mother of 5 children. My oldest died when she was 11yrs old..25 yrs ago on the 29th of August..a liver disease which today could have been helped by a liver transplant..and recently, my 31yr old daughter told me that I have lost one more daughter (herself) mainly because I refused to give her a loan for a car. She has 3 children herself..is a single mother...and then I have another daughter (my oldest living child) who has one child and cannot seem to have anymore because her husband has too few and slow sperm..this daughter is 34 and her husband is 42..there are so many situations in life that hurt and pain..very very deeply. I don´t know about books that educate people about what to say or not to say. People say stupid, silly things..meaning well..but getting it all wrong anyway. Don`t you think??? Some of these silly things teach me the lesson of humility (I hope)because I have to remember that people don´t understand fully..they have not walked in my moccassins..but they are perhaps still trying in their own way to understand and give condolence or whatever. If people get instructions about what to say or not say...does what they DO say come from the heart..even if that heart is clumsy and silly sometimes? I don´t know..Two of my children (adults) are in therapy and due to this therapy, I think, they say very hurtful things about our daughter and their sister that we all lost so many years ago. But it´s honest..what they say at present..and even tho it hurts SO MUCH..I still want what they are thinking now..I know that they will move on and perhaps think something else..whatever that may be..but I want their honesty..otherwise I have nothing to relate to..to work with. When my daughter died, many told me that it was God´s will, etc etc. I couldn´t swallow that..now or then. But these people tried in their own way..I can appreciate that..I think. My daughter who cannot have anymore children..she has one child, I know..but is there room for her pain, too? There should be..I think..maybe without pamphlets and help? I know that I am on thin ice here..but I want to lift these thoughts into the open..with the greatest of humility and hope that I will get straight answers back. 
_________________________
"some sacred place.."
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#84691 - 08/24/07 03:15 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: humlan]
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Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
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Many of you say that one should leave one´s adult children to have their own lives and get on with one´s life..I am living with a man that is the same age as my oldest living daughter,34. I will soon be 60. So yes, I have my own life. But my other daughter..the single mother with 3 kids, is still looking for her mother, she says. She needs help..but not at the expense of my entire life..what´s left of it..(my opinion)..so what is the definition of a mother? Caretaker? Is it supposed to be one that never says "no"..I work with "needy" children..that´s my job..and yes, I can have stomach aches and sleepless nights because of the children that I work with..they are not mine, but they TRUST in me and I cannot break their trust..OooooHHHHHH..where does motherhood begin and end???
Am I the sort of person that doesn´t understand not being a mom not by choice??? I KNOW that I am blessed by my biological children..that I cannot deny..but I am also blessed by the children that I touch and the trust and love they give me each day. And I remember my clumsy friends and aquaintances that tried to give me solace and comfort when my child died..because I assume that they tried..and believe me, there is a STARE and silence there too. Hospital attendents who tried to understand with looks..and I wanted to give them a punch..but today I think I understand that they tried.
Am I totally off here??? Please tell me if I am. I want to know..Life has so many cuts..aspects..and it is thru sincerity that we learn from one another..or NOT???? I am almost afraid to post this..but I will anyway..maybe to learn something myself that I don´t SEE..because I certainly don´t SEE everything! I have learned that at least!
_________________________
"some sacred place.."
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#84692 - 08/24/07 05:18 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: humlan]
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Member
Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
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Humlan
I taught children who then died.They were children who had sufferd with cancers. Believe me when I say I made every day at school a precious day.We carried on normality best we could.One set of parents turned to me asking if I would attend the funeral parlour to say goodbye.Took me to the girls bedroom and asked me to choose a keepsake(I took a hair ribbon) Another Mother never speaks if we see each other at the shops.Yet another cut herself and her child off from my staff and the childs peers at the end.This was how she coped.
In all cases it was a two way relationship.They acted in the best way they could.Given their heartache.However sincere and caring a person is the turmoil parents feel makes an
unreal and sensitive relationship.
I was sincere in what I said and did at these times and believe me when I say I will never forget these young people.
Mountain ash
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#84693 - 08/24/07 06:04 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Mountain Ash]
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Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
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Thank you, Mountain Ash. Then my intuitive feeling that the people around us tried their best for us is probably true. I haven´t actually considered my own shattered self at the time and therefore my oversenitive response to some of these fellow humans. Somehow tho, as I wrote earlier, I did feel that they were trying..trying to reach us in their own way. Let us know that they cared.. What I don´t agree with at this point are pamphlets or kits telling you how to act or what to say to people that are going thru a difficult time. These things take away the sincerity that you are talking about..
Humlan
_________________________
"some sacred place.."
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#84694 - 08/24/07 10:35 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: humlan]
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Founder
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 23647
Loc: Maryland
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This is such a rich topic. Thanks for sharing from the heart.
I think so much of what people say and do in difficult situations has to do with ignorance, and I don't meant that in a bad way. Some of us are green when it comes to certain situations and even though we mean well, we may come across as rude, uncaring, unloving. I think hulan has realized through the years that even though people didn't respond a certain way, at least they responded and tried to show care. Is that right humlan? And even after all these years, I express my sympathy. A dear friend of ours just lost her only son and I am trying to show love and care for my friends. I just hope I'm doing it appropriately, if there is an appropriate way to act.
I can relate to this ignorance in another area of my life. Two of our three children are adopted from Korea. AS they were being raised, people always asked if they were brother and sister. It made me cringe, especially if they were standing right there with me. I typically responded, "Of course they are brother and sister." They didn't realize n their ignorance to be nosy that they were being offensive. I think what some of them meant, but didn't say appropriately was,"Were they sibligns in Korea before you adopted them?"
One funny, ignorant thing I have to share is that after our oldest son arrived at three months, he of course was living with us. When he was beginning to talk, someone who had knkow him since he arrived, asked if when he spoke, would he talk in English? All I could do was laugh! What do people think? They don't always think before speaking. That's the problem.
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#84695 - 08/25/07 02:38 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
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Member
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 3503
Loc: Colorado
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Dotsie, that is too stupid. Even for a non-thinking ignorant person. I understand your point clearly, but really, "would he talk English" is just too stupid. I'm really worried...
When one woman asks another woman if she has children, and the woman says "no" the "no" it is a conversation stopper. I used to fill the pause after her question and my "no" with a personal explanation. Now I know I don't owe an explanation except if it's appropriate as in this forum in response to Di's thought provoking questions. I went back to college in my forties. People assumed that I had already raised, say 3 kids, and when I "got done" raising them I went back to college. It was a pet peeve of mine in college that woman would ask "how many children do you have" before asking "what is your major." I forgot to mention: When I was 15, my sister was born with Down syndrome. In the 1960s, my step-mother was told in the hospital that my little baby sister Heather should go immediately to an institution. But my step mother asked to hold her, just once, and of course she could not give up her child. Bringing Heather home was, well, not good. The neighborhood was aghast and cruel (such as pointing and whispering when she was being walked in the carriage) family was embarrassed. You know the story from TEARS. Anyway, at age 4 my step mother did put that child in an "institution." I was told never to speak of my sister again. Therein lies yet another reason not to have children. So was this choice a 15 year old can make? I don't know...I was just afraid of the family. Is fear a reason? I don't know. Did the insanity in the family take my choice re: children away? I don't know. I can imagine that wanting a child and not being able to in a way that one wants to would be akin to a loss and grief..but I'm just guessing away here.
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#84696 - 08/25/07 08:02 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Princess Lenora]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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Pamphlets and kits bear the "voices" of those who do not share my experience as a mother and grandmother. Some women are verbally forthright at first instance but, others cannot or would not and therefore, do not let their feelings known. And it is for those "some" that I would "listen" and welcome pamphlets and kits.
I think it is in our human nature to be spontaneous and statements made, which sometimes may appear as reckless abandon of the other person's feelings or circumstances, are part and parcel of that. Surely, if one would gauge sincerity, it ought to be from conduct that follows the seemingly reckless encounter.
This thread started a month after Gabriel was born. Now, it has come home. Gabriel passed away in April. He was my sister's only grandchild and I have a grandson who was born a month after Gabriel. The recent news is that my niece may never become a mother again because of the high risk of severe holoprosencephaly to any child she conceives. Holoprosencephaly was what Gabriel had. My niece's circumstances would follow "not by choice".
How has it been since Gabriel passed away and my niece's circumstances following that? Delicate. My children and grandchildren are central to who I am and everything that I do in life involves them. I do not know how to carry on a conversation with my sister and niece without drifting into my family life, especially these few months, where I am with the grandchildren four days a week. I can only pray and rely on the thought that my sister, niece and I know each other's hearts well enough to overcome comparisons and all that comes with it.
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#84697 - 08/25/07 10:20 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Lola]
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Member
Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
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My Father was a Polish soldier during WW2.He and my Mother married then he died.I never knew him.I was intergrated well into my Mother family had many cousins and caring adults.
One person was W"sorry for the wee mite" when asked why she said that I would not understand English having a "foreigner" as a Father.
It goes to show that we should never overestimate anothers knowledge.
I embrace my difference...
Mountain ash
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#84700 - 08/25/07 10:09 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
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I have just returned from a day trip to the northern part of Sweden. The fields with their round bails of hay looked like something out of old paintings from harvest time. The trip took 6 hrs. all in all. So my head is heavy and still buzzing from the drone of our old Volvo. But I had to check this thread..thank you, Di, because it is SO IMPORTANT..as many say.
Dear dear fellow women and sisters.. so much devasting pain and so much honesty..I don´t think that I have ever met so much in one place. And I am filled with love and respect for you all. I sincerely mean this.
I have the greatest respect for you that have decided in one way or another not to have children. And I sometimes wonder if I should not have been so selfless as to think as you do. There is the reality of the future that doesn´t look very bright and hopeful, if I really take the time to take in what global warming and destruction means. But I often don´t take the time because I am too chicken to do it. Then I really have to SEE what is ahead and SEE the world that I have brought my children (and grandchildren) into. And then there are all the issues from my own life that I thought I could cope with and not spread to my children. Issues like my incest problems, my own need for love and acknowledgement..my fear of being left alone..my cultural problems..having been born in the Czech Rep., raised in the US and married and living in Sweden..etc. etc. There are some of you out there that decided to put a stop to your own issues and the picture of the future and DO something about it..take responsibility. And that decision..not to have children..has brought you pain and a shutting out by well meaning fools in our society. But you have decided to weather all that because you BELIEVE in your reasons and in yourselves. You are actively saying NO to a continuation of the problems..poison..in yourselves and our society. Yes, I have children and I would not erase any of them..could not. But some of them are battling with the problems I have bestowed upon them just by being their mother. And, so far, some of them are creating the same scenario for their children. My children fulfill me..but YOU have taken an active role in stopping what maybe inevitably comes and will come.
After reading what you all wrote, I am still wary of pamphlets and kits on how to react. Some of the reactions you have experienced have been very hurtful..very very hurtful..and stupid..yes. But they were not taught from a self help kit on how to react. They revealed alittle bit of the person who said them which gave you an indication of the sort of person you were dealing with. Can´t that be helpful in knowing who you want as a friend or not? I don´t know..Ignorance..yes, we are dealing with ignorance in some cases..but can others KNOW how it feels when your daughter takes her last breaths in a hospital room and the silence that follows? Can I expect true understanding of such moments from my fellow humans? I don´t think so. But perhaps I can acknowledge their attempts at trying to reach me in my sorrow..to let me know that they care and dare to show it? I don´t know..I don´t know..because all the experiences that I have had the honor of sharing on this forum tonite are so different..so very different. But I do hear and feel the pain.
_________________________
"some sacred place.."
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#84701 - 08/25/07 10:55 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: humlan]
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Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
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I am continuing here as I am worried about losing what I write. It has happened before . I don´t know why I am thinking that my reaction what you all wrote is so important..but I HAVE TO react because you all spoke to my heart..the innermost regions that I tuck away for safety´s sake. It will be 25 yrs ago on Aug.29th that my daughter Susan died..and I am sure that my body remebers alot more than I do consciously. So perhaps that is why I feel I must write to you. Take it for what it is.. Princess,I work with children like your sister, Heather. And I know how cruel people can be..family and the near community. I myself, as their teacher and day caretaker, can loose patience. The trust and love that these children give me is so great that I always drive home thinking what an awful person I am. How I fail them because I don´t understand what they are trying to say to me..to convey to me. I feel as tho they exist on a level that I have deep within me, being a human, but I have stifled it on my way by cultural norms. I can truely understand that you did not want to risk having a child that would have to go thru this again.. Lola, I have one daughter with 3 children..2 from one father and 1 from another father. Her last son was conceived despite a coil and and a condom. I have another daughter who has one child (9yrs old) and cannot conceive any more ecause her husband has sperm problems. She is married to a pastor and has a "organized" life or whatever you want to call it. These 2 women do not get along at all. My "organized" daughter lives in the US and visits maybe every other year. The 2 sisters always have very very hurtful verbal fights.It is usually my daughter with the 3 children that starts them. As a family, this causes alot of pain and sorrow as we love them both and think they are both great in their own way. My daughter with the 3 kids feels like a failure deep inside..eventho she isn´t at all. She is managing quite well despite all the odds. And my daugther from the States is asking herself: why? why? can´t I have more children. As you say..one can only hope that they both understand that we just LOVE them for the people that they are. And that we are yearning and hoping for them both..without comparing or judging in any way. You cannot compare grief..ever. Right? Dotsie..is there an appropriate way to face another´s grief? NO. NO. NO. That´s what I mean by no pamphlets and kits..BUT I MAY BE WRONG here! By the fact that you are TRYING to be of help and consolation is enough. You DARE to call on the phone or Do something just by perjaps being there..visiting or something. There are SO MANY people that avoid contact because they are frightened by doing the wrong thing..saying the wrong thing..but often when you are in deepest grief, you don´t have the energy to call for help and you yourself don´t want to call someone on the phone just to talk because you know you will talk about the tremendous pain you feel..that consumes you..and who has the energy and time to listen to that? So you don´t call anyone..and are so grateful when someone calls you instead and asks: how are you doing? How are you getting thru your day?.. I`d like to just come over and have some coffee with you and talk.. It´s almost 1am. here in Sweden. But I am a night owl..thank you..all of you for sharing so much so deeply..and thank you especially..Di!
_________________________
"some sacred place.."
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#84702 - 08/26/07 01:02 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: humlan]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 3503
Loc: Colorado
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I am awed at the depth of discussion. You are all so wise and wonderful. All of us have experienced joy and sorrow. There is so much to respond to that I don't know where to start. Here is the last thing I wrote about my sister Heather; I think this applies to all of our hearts: ****“Love is never lost. Heather was here long enough to teach the lesson of unconditional love. The exchange of love experienced with her will never leave your heart.”****I forgot something else: when I thought I was pregnant at 38, I thought it was a now or never decision. After finding out that I was not, I had to go through a series of gynecological procedures. It was determined that I had had endometriosis festering for years. Furthermore, if I were to get pregnant, the chances of carrying to term were not very good. How painful would that be? I was glad to have this knowledge. Humlan, your comment about someone caring to call, daring to converse, is not way off. I think it is better to make an effort to care and console than to avoid and deny another's pain. Anne, I had the same fears as you in regards to the Cuban Missle Crisis, and our "duck and cover" excersises. My goodness, what what we learning? Indeed that there may be no future. Dotsie, Lola, Mountain, Di, and all of you, I am tearful and grateful that we are talking about this. L, PL
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#84703 - 08/26/07 02:07 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Princess Lenora]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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After our online "ministry" began, I had not realized that "childless not by choice" could also include the death of one. With my "tunnel vision" of my own situation, I did not "see" it. This is very sad indeed. I cannot stay I understand, but I'm sad for them nonetheless.
Regarding the "childles by choice or not by choice" question one poster posed, I see it this way. If one is saddened about not having children, it is NOT by choice. Others' opinion certainly differ, but that is my feeling.
As for my life today, daily I think/ponder about how my life will be. Not long ago, I received a copy of a "Family Tree" report my niece in the UK had to write. When I saw, with my own eyes, my "family branch" ended with me, it hit me hard! No legacy...nothing. I end, period! Oftentimes I feel like a nothing, no one. No one's mother, no ones grandmother. Just me. Yes, I am a wife of course, and a sister or daughter. But we all know women are "identified" today with how many offspring they have. I am a FUR MOM!!
No I am not depressed. I'm simply stating my thoughts and feelings on this subject matter.
As far as secondary infertility, I do not understand it. My first response would be "They at least have ONE!" But then, when I hear the replies to my situation such as "At least you don't have to (fill in the blank..there are many!), I get the heartache of a reply when ones does not think before they speak. (Dotsie, you hit that one on the head!!)
Regarding the pamphlets and brochures on how to respond to certain situations...if it is someone near and dear to me, I do research and learn HOW to be a friend to them thru their hardship. Right..we ALL go thru heartache.
As we know here on this board, it's crucial to hear "I've walked in your shoes. I get it!". For me, there are not words more healing! Been there, done that. My own family all have children. They are sad for me, yes. But they don't GET IT!
Then I think about getting older. Yep, just turned 50 with no health insurance. A DH who is getting older (57 now). Where will I go? Not sure, but have a God who promises to take care of me.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I truly appreciate the dialogging going on here. The truth be told: EDUCATION IS THE KEY!!!
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#84704 - 08/26/07 02:03 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'm childress, not certain if by choice or by life circumstances. For instance, molested as a child and married an abuser (now divorced). I'm 41, and my children are my animals.
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#84705 - 08/26/07 03:28 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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Mustang Gal...are you saddened by not having children? If so, it's not by choice. If not, then by choice.
That's the "rule of thumb" that we use on our site, basically.
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#84706 - 08/26/07 05:15 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Di]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Di, yes I've been sad for not having my own child, for children can be your best friend, love and God's living proof, they can be a great joy and bring sadness. I miss that I'll never share that with a human being that I brought into this world. I miss not being able to associate with other mothers who seem to have a common connection. Yet, at the same time I'm glad for my freedom and have often worried if I'd be a good parent, knowing my child rearing - would I better or worse? An oxymoron, if you will.
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#84708 - 08/28/07 06:14 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Member
Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
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Anne
what we "hear" as children can be stored away and taken out for airing all through our lives.To issustrate this..I had an Aunt who bought special soap.Remember this was just post war.The soap Bomol was my Grandmothers favourite when she was a young woman.So aunt made a comment when I was staying that since I was there on holiday her soap was being used up quickly.I remember thinking "Wow" I have been naughty.
Fast forward until I had my own home..I stored soap like it was going out of fashion.I realise now I was reacting to a chance remark.
Perhaps your Father was deeply concerned about your health and could only express this the way he did.
Mountain ash
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#84710 - 08/29/07 02:35 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 3503
Loc: Colorado
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Well, count me in, I am saddened about not having children. I am sickened by the psychological reasons: fearing I would raise as I had been raised. Mustang, that was a very honest and forthright post of yours. I appreciate that we can share innermost thoughts here.
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#84711 - 08/29/07 03:34 AM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: Princess Lenora]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 2798
Loc: NM, transplant from NJ
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As odd as it sounds, I'm kinda glad to see so many here really "open up" about their lost dream of children.
I remember many, many years ago...as a teen, I did not want to have any. If I recall, that was during the new "women's rights" movement AND before I grew up and got married.
Sadly, we are all programmed with "first comes love, then comes marriage"....my "then comes Diane with the baby carriage" never happened.
Because of that mis-conception about life, I do NOT give out baby dolls to little girls as gifts. To me, it is terrible to allow a little girl to get a preconceived idea that she WILL be a mommy. It still hurts me today that I did not know that some women may never give birth. I blame it on no education and society "assuming" that all women have children.
High school health class teacher never once said "Now girls, some of you could possibly have an imperfect body and experience childlessness". I was never warned......NEVER!
Therefore, I am making an effort to give, as gifts, a few books written by a friend. There are two out now, of a trilogy. They are about a childless couple at Christmas time. I want kids to know that there ARE, in fact, couples who are saddened about not having children. That we DO exist.
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#84713 - 09/04/07 05:29 PM
Re: Educating about the lost dream of children
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3675
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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I am sorry for the mothers here who have lost their children via death.
THis thread started a few months.
But honest, after reading all this , I still feel no maternal stirrings. ...even after 1 of my sisters (38 yrs.) announced her lst pregnancy a few days ago. And even after seeing 5 nieces and nephews growing in past few days, after not seeing them for past 12 months.
I am happy for everyone else. And I have no regrets for myself.
I probably sound awful, but a mother who has had a child that died is very different from a woman who never gave birth. The memory of birth, holding the baby.. must be acutely bittersweet/sad.
My greater sympathy is for the women who no longer have their loved child(ren) alive.
Life is for living...and for those of us who are childless, we do have an incredible amount of energy to help those who have children...and give back to the wider community.
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